[discuss] Snowden Revelations: What concrete activities were revealed that led us here?

Tue Jan 21 06:30:54 UTC 2014

Gregory,

I for one think you are on to something and have said so before in more
detail. The connection between the "Snowden revelations" and the need to
reform Internet governance is beyond tenuous. "Wag the dog" captures about
95% of the mechanism.

Yours,

Alejandro Pisanty

On Tue, Jan 21, 2014 at 12:19 AM, Shatan, Gregory S.
<GShatan at reedsmith.com>wrote:

>  Nick,
>
>
>
> I’ve already done more than a little online research on this very topic,
> as well as following the Snowden story and “revelations” with some interest
> at the time it was first being reported.  The results of my research,
> trying to answer this question myself, were disappointing.  I’ve read a
> number of general summaries and did not find the answer to my particular
> question.  I did begin to wonder if I was chasing  a “will o’ the wisp.”
> Before devoting more time to research, I thought that it would be
> appropriate to ask this group so that those who relatively expert on the
> topic might point me in the right direction.  I hope we are all here to
> (among other things) use our relative strengths, knowledge and backgrounds
> to assist others who have different strengths, etc.   As such, I hardly
> expected those “not expert” to go digging on my behalf (though I did think
> they might benefit from the answers the question elicited).
>
>
>
> I am certainly not asking the list to do any research.  Rather, with
> Snowden’s NSA (etc.) leaks providing such an impetus for the
> “de-USification” of Internet Governance and Internet institutions, I
> thought the answer to my question would be “top of mind” or at least
> well-known to those who cited Snowden’s material as a reason for this shift.
>
>
>
> This is not a “gotcha” question.  I try to approach these issues with an
> open mind (not a *tabula rasa*, but a willingness to listen and weigh
> what I hear/read), as I hope others do as well.  I’ll read the Bruce
> Schneider blog posts you suggest.  So far, that’s all I’ve seen, but
> hopefully there will be more.
>
>
>
> Greg Shatan
>
>
>
> *From:* Nick Ashton-Hart [mailto:nashton at ccianet.org]
> *Sent:* Thursday, January 16, 2014 3:40 AM
> *To:* Shatan, Gregory S.; discuss at 1net.org
> *Subject:* Re: [discuss] Snowden Revelations: What concrete activities
> were revealed that led us here?
>
>
>
> dear Greg,
>
> I think you will be best able to answer these questions with a little
> online research, candidly, rather than asking this list to, in effect, do
> that work for you when many here are not expert in these subjects. A number
> of reputable news sources have excellent summaries, and for security Bruce
> Schneider has excellent blog posts that make the issues with compromising
> of encryption etc clear.
>
>
>
> "Shatan, Gregory S." <GShatan at ReedSmith.com> wrote:
>
> All:
>
>
>
> I have followed the Snowden revelations with interest and some diligence,
> but I can’t profess to know everything that has been revealed and reported
> on.  As a result of /1Net discussions, my interest has been piqued and I’ve
> been looking for the “smoking gun(s)” or “the scene of the [Internet]
> crime”: the explicit and specific acts by US surveillance (etc.) that were
> uniquely made possible by the United States’ current relationship to
> Internet governance, Internet infrastructure, ICANN, and/or IANA, etc.  I
> want to know what happened and I haven’t really been successful.
>
>
>
> In other words, I would like to fill in the blanks in the following
> sentence: “Because of the United States’ unique ________________ [e.g.,
> “relationship to”, ”control over”] ____________ [e.g., “the Root”,
> “ICANN”], _________________ [e.g., “the NSA”, “PRISM”, “US Cyber Command”]
> was able to do the following:___________________________________ [e.g.,
> “access XYZ”, “intercept XYZ”, “read XYZ”].
>
>
>
> Or, the corollary, “Solely due to stopping the US _____________________
> and/or moving __________________, US surveillance agencies will no longer
> be able to__________________.”
>
>
>
> So far, what I’ve found that’s concrete relates to the US working with
> private enterprises (no reason to name names here) to gain access to
> data.   But it appears that these “relationships” could (and probably do)
> happen in any country with significant private enterprises (and a
> governmental yen for surveillance), and it seems those “relationships”
> would exist in largely the same fashion even if the US had no “special”
> relationship to the Internet.  (Spies will be spies, after all, and IG
> isn’t going to stop them.)  So, this isn’t really what I’m looking for.
>
>
>
> Of course, I’ve found a lot of higher level, abstract discussions that
> don’t tie back to any discrete, identifiable action that the US was able to
> take because of its position vis a vis the Internet.  Some of these are
> interesting and thought-provoking.  Then there are that say the connection
> between Snowden and the impetus for an IG shakeup is clear and obvious, but
> they don’t actually demonstrate the connection and seem to end up with more
> of a “guilt by association” argument.  And those that assume the connection
> or seem to be using Snowden as an excuse and quickly move on to next steps
> in shifting IG around.  There are even speculative arguments that the
> technology could have developed in a different way or would develop in a
> different way if the US/Internet relationship were different or
> nonexistent.  But these are also not what I’m looking for.
>
>
>
> I am really looking for *concrete technical exploits* revealed by Snowden
> that were uniquely made possible by the way things work now with the US
> relationship to the Internet, and for citations to primary sources (or
> reliable secondary sources that quote or link to primary sources) that
> report/reveal those exploits.  To use a crude analogy (and with apologies
> to anybody who knows anything about technology) I want something like,
> “Because the cable company has located a mess of cables and boxes in my
> closet, I’m able to steal cable TV.  If they took that out of my closet, I
> wouldn’t get free cable anymore.  And here’s how I did it.”  I haven’t
> really found this yet.  What am I missing?
>
>
>
> Some might say this is not an IG question.  I think it is (and perhaps you
> can indulge me if you disagree).  L’Affaire Snowden was a key driver to all
> that has happened since in IG.  We should know why and what are the
> concrete problems (if any) it showed us that we need to solve.  Though I
> may disagree to a greater or lesser extent, I understand the philosophical
> or political reasons why.  What I am keen to find out are the factual
> technical reasons why.
>
>
>
> Apologies for asking such a long-winded question.  I look forward to the
> answers.
>
>
>
> Greg Shatan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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