[discuss] Utopia was Re: [] Survey

Avri Doria avri at acm.org
Wed Mar 5 10:15:09 UTC 2014


(no longer remember who contributed this line originally)

>  > They want to constrain States with such jokes.
>  > Folks, States are where humanity has located "sovereignty", i.e. the
> legitimacy to use force up to violence if this becomes necessary.
>  > Anything that does proceed from that fundamental premise is called
> utopia.

Just wanted to point out that every advance in governance, including the 
representational democratic scheme some of us have now, was once called 
all sorts of names that make Utopia look like praise.  As far as i can 
tell some royals still don't accept it as a valid way forward.  I bet 
they have worse names for representational democracy than Utopian.

And to reiterate my view, multistakeholder models build on, and include, 
the State based representational democracy in an attempt to move toward 
a more participatory democracy.  Some states may do a decent job of 
representing the citizen residing withing a geographically bounded 
territory for a particular set of interests related to that place and 
time.  The states does little for a wider set of rights-based interests 
people may have, does nothing (or worse) for the non citizens under its 
control, and has nothing to say about inter-jurisdictional disputes in 
the absence of treaty.  Beyond that the state frequently infringes upon 
the rights of citizen and residents alike; rights they have agreed to by 
convenant.  There is no doubt in my mind that we need ever better forms 
of democracy and I argue that the multistakeholder model, though young 
and still flawed, is the best step forward we have at the moment toward 
a better democracy.

Calling it Utopian, or worse, and deprecating it in various ways does 
not change that.  Sovereignty as currently understood has been a limited 
success - just looking at the daily papers and the movable permanent 
wars should be enough to convince anyone.  We need to figure out how to 
do better.  And this movement on the Internet, a new way for global 
society to interact directly, is the best alternative I know of at this 
point in time.


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