[discuss] JustNet Coalition contribution on Roadmap for the further evolution of the internet governance ecosystem for Netmundial.br

Sat Mar 15 05:42:57 UTC 2014

Hello Sivasubramanian,
sent from Google nexus 4
kindly excuse brevity and typos.
On 15 Mar 2014 00:43, "Sivasubramanian M" <isolatedn at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> While I have asked Parminder to cast his vote for the Internet eco-system
in order to fight for the Global South, I would try and charm you into
upside-down thinking. Join me, and even by your own terminology, our
Utopian thinking could together produce magical results in a mind before
matter Universe.
>
> An occurrence that could endorse such thinking :
>
> http://www.icann.org/en/news/announcements/announcement-14mar14-en.htm
>
It may be good to note that this has come to be because of the collective
efforts from you, parminder and the entire global internet community that
span beyond the "global south" and beyond ICANN(definitely beyond /1Net).
History has been made, and people have been rewarded for their tireless
efforts. Having said that, there is now even more grounds to conquer; It is
my hope that the issues relating to mass surveillance vis net-neutrality
will then take center stage at the Br event.

Kind Regards
> Sivasubramanian M
>
>
> On Sat, Mar 15, 2014 at 12:52 AM, Ian Peter <ian.peter at ianpeter.com>
wrote:
>>
>> very utopian Siva.
>>
>> But I can give you countless examples of small businesses that had
promise being taken over/squashed by large dominant corporations in the
internet sphere. The internet is not immune to the practices of dominant
corporations and there is no level playing field.
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Sivasubramanian M
>> Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2014 5:22 AM
>> To: parminder
>> Cc: 1Net List
>> Subject: Re: [discuss] JustNet Coalition contribution on Roadmap for the
further evolution of the internet governance ecosystem for Netmundial.br
>>
>> Dear Parminder,
>>
>> My response is also inline :)
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 14, 2014 at 10:44 PM, parminder <parminder at itforchange.net>
wrote:
>>>
>>> Dear Siva
>>>
>>> pl see inline....
>>>
>>> On Friday 14 March 2014 06:00 PM, sivasubramanian muthusamy wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Dear Parminder,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 1,  It is interesting to note that what you have observed "Things are
not going in the right directions with the evolution of the Internet vis a
vis canons of equity and social justice (for instance, 10 top websites had
respectively 25, 50 and 75 percent of the total page views in the US in
2000, 2005 and 2010, and things have gone considerably worse since)."  Are
these websites or networks of websites?  Even if this data pertains to
"networks of websites", it would be interesting, please provide a list.
>>>
>>>
>>> I provide as the quote occurs in an IT for Change annual report "John
Bellamy Foster and Robert W. McChesney discuss this in their commentary on
'The  Internet's Unholy Marriage to Capitalism', noting how "we are
entering a world of digital feudalism, where a  handful of colossal
corporate mega-giants rule private empires.... the top 10 Web sites
accounted for 31 percent  of US page views in 2001, 40 percent in 2006, and
about 75 percent in 2010..." (Monthly Review, March 2011)". Sorry my
numbers were slightly off, and the actual facts show an even worse
deterioration between 2005 and 2010.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> 2.  I am also interested in learning from you if there are any
barriers for entry for anyone from India or Brazil to publish and promote
such a "website" and gain a traffic share. Please point me to any licensing
barriers or growth bottlenecks for any one from the Global South to build
such a network.
>>>
>>>
>>> Well, one can also say, please show me any licensing barrier or growth
bottleneck for poor people to become rich and developing countries to
become developed!
>>
>>
>> Poor people are slow to become rich and the rich become richer. That
much I agree. In the conventional business
>> eco-system, it has not been possible, until recently, for a business
firm a developing economy to globally compete with Western mega
corporations, at least in some sectors. There have been barriers, visible
and invisible.
>>
>> Internet is free of such barriers, at least on a visible level. There
may be some intricate barriers, but at like how it has been before the
Internet. Internet has brought about a transformation. The Hope for the
rest of the world comes from the borderless, One Internet, which is free
and open. It so happens that "Firms such as Google, Amazon, Craigslist, and
Facebook have become iconic"  to quote from your source. My point is that
there isn't an evil design behind the success of these corporations, they
merely made use of the opportunities Internet presented, and succeeded.
What prevents any one or any business firm from any other country from
starting a search engine, a book store or a social network? In Internet
there are no start up barriers, so it is the eco-system of hope. The
strength of the eco-system comes from being borderless and global, so any
argument to create divisions, even for rhetoric reasons, would lead to
policies that would result in balkanization of the Internet, which would
negatively alter the Internet eco-system and cause to perpetuate the very
imbalance between the rich and poor.
>>
>> Hope for the "Global South" lies in preserving the Internet eco-system
of permissionless-innovation, which as an eco-system barely 20 years old,
happens to have caused a relatively minor imbalance of a few American (and
other) Corporations making visibly significant business gains. I would have
no complaints about their business gains, but if your concern lies beyond
this, I would argue that eventually there will be a balance, and the hope
for such a balance comes from the very eco-system about which you have
complaints, for it allows anyone to create a search engine, perhaps better
than what Google has created :)
>>
>> Dear Parminder, If you want to fight for the Global South, then fight to
preserve the Internet eco-system.
>>
>> Sivasubramanian M
>>
>> 
>>>
>>> After all poor are poor because they are lazy and ignorant, and
developing countries are lagging because a large majority of its people are
lazy and ignorant... What has any kind of global structural conditions to
do with it, and thus where is their any role for any kind of political
approach to such issues.
>>>
>>> I had thought that Social Darwinism was rather disreputable a social
theory to be cited in global political discourse.
>>>
>>> regards
>>> parminder
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thank you
>>>> Sivasubramanian M
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Mar 14, 2014 at 2:07 PM, parminder <parminder at itforchange.net>
wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> While we are on this subject, it may be useful for the 1Net to
recognise that many actors do not think the ' ICANN/IANA issue' should be
the main concern of NetMundial.... Reading the minutes of the recent High
Level Committee meeting for NetMundial, I see France say this clearly, and
ICANN rep agree to it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Now, even if we are to take that ICANN/IANA will only be half of the
story at NetMundial, should we do some discussion on the other half as
well? Beginning perhaps with recognizing what this other half is.
>>>>>
>>>>> I take it to the broader public policy issues related to the Internet
which are either inherently global, like general jurisdictional disputes
and global mass surveillance, or have very significant global implications,
for instance, net neutrality and economic of personal data.
>>>>>
>>>>> What kind of global Internet governance mechanisms are required to
address these pressing global issues?
>>>>>
>>>>> I certainly take the need for urgent addressing of these issues to be
of much greater important than the ICANN/IANA issue. Also, remember that
President Rousseff's UN Speech which precipitated matter and set us on the
road to Sao Paolo had nothing to do with the ICANN/IANA issue and
everything to do with these other issues.
>>>>>
>>>>> Parminder
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Friday 14 March 2014 01:05 PM, parminder wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tuesday 11 March 2014 05:33 PM, S Moonesamy wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Parminder,
>>>>>>> At 02:29 11-03-2014, parminder at itforchange.net wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The preamble is the same, however the operative part is different.
It
>>>>>>>> provided a roadmap for institutional reform in global governance.
The
>>>>>>>> earlier document was about principles for Internet governance.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Happy to provide any further clarification.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If one of the aims of the proposal is to help developing countries,
could you please explain how it would help such a country?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear Moonesamy,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am happy to explain...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To understand how the proposal from Just Net Coalition helps
developing countries one needs to first understand 'what and who' shapes
the evolution of the Internet today, as the Internet itself shapes our
larger social structures, whereby the impact of this 'what and who' goes
rather far and deep...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To keep it brief, it is my understanding that the following key
political and economic forces shape the Internet today, in the decreasing
order of impact;
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Extravagant profit motives of a few global corporation, almost all
US based;
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The laws and policies of the US, which are enforced, overtly and
subtly, on these global corporation; and,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Policy framework of some clubs of rich countries, like the OECD and
CoE (for instance, OCED's principles for Internet policy making).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There is huge nexus between 1 and 2, which together constitute the
most powerful, in fact, quite overwhelming, force shaping the Internet
today. Meanwhile, the US is largely able to bull-dodge its way with regard
to 3 above as well.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Apart from the above, Internet technical standards and critical
resource management bodies, also have a strong impact. These bodies have
swung between doing extremely good work to frequent capture by the above
corporate interests. In my view, their public policy oversight while
important is relatively the lesser problem right now as compared to other
issues listed above.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Now, before we move forward to frame a response to the basic
question you asked, 'how does the Just Net Coalition's (JNC) proposal help
developing countries', we need to form some level of agreement on two
propositions.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The above is largely the right picture of the forces that are
shaping the Internet today.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Things are not going in the right directions with the evolution of
the Internet vis a vis canons of equity and social justice (for instance,
10 top websites had respectively 25, 50 and 75 percent of the total page
views in the US in 2000, 2005 and 2010, and things have gone considerably
worse since).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you strongly disagree with either of the above two propositions,
JNC's proposal will make no sense to you. But if you do agree, there is a
lot of ground for us to look at remedial political solutions. And I am
ready to take up such a discussion, admitting that our proposed solution
may only be one among many possible, and even perhaps not the best one. Our
group, in its collective wisdom, thought that what is needed in the current
context is an counter-magnetic field to the highly dominant forces today,
that would be created by developing an anchor point inside the UN system
which begins to undertake normative discussions on issues of Internet
policies, and where needed comes up with higher norms and principles (as
OECD has come up with), policy frameworks, and as and when needed, binding
conventions and treaties.As happens with every sector in the UN, it will be
much more about developing higher norms and principles, much fewer policy
frameworks and rather infrequent conventions or treaties....
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Such a counter magnetic field alone can even begin balancing the
lopsidedness of the current political and economic model around the
Internet, and it goes to reason that such a balancing will serve the
interests of developing countries, in fact of all marginalized groups
everywhere in the world.I hope you agree.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>
>>>>>> parminder
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>> S. Moonesamy
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> discuss mailing list
>>>>> discuss at 1net.org
>>>>> http://1net-mail.1net.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Sivasubramanian Muthusamy
>> India +91 99524 03099
>> 
>>
>> ________________________________
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>> discuss at 1net.org
>> http://1net-mail.1net.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>
>
>
>
> --
> Sivasubramanian Muthusamy
> India +91 99524 03099
>
> _______________________________________________
> discuss mailing list
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> http://1net-mail.1net.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
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