[discuss] A thought experiment - what follows the 'IANA transition?'

Tue Mar 18 20:05:59 UTC 2014

Dear George Sadowsky,

Reply inline:

On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 10:42 PM, George Sadowsky <george.sadowsky at gmail.com
> wrote:

> All,
>
> I would like to focus on a broader issue raised by the interesting
> discussion below.   It has been touched on before, but I think it’s useful
> to go somewhat further.
>
> I see the issue as what is the appropriate domain of 'Internet governance'
> concerns.  And that leads immediately to what we think the domain of
> concern of “Internet governance’ is, i.e. how we define it.
>
> *I’d like to propose a thought experiment.*  Suppose that by 30 September
> 2015, somehow “we” have created an appropriate accountability mechanism to
> replace NTIA’s current responsibilities.   Further, suppose that (1) NTIA
> accepted it and proceeded to make the transfer to the new mechanism, and
> (2) there was very broad general agreement across multiple stakeholder
> groups globally that this was a transition that was worth supporting.
>
> *What, then, would we discuss next?*
>
> *On the one hand*, some of us argue that Internet governance is really
> the appropriate construction of Internet administration and coordination
> mechanisms, with their appropriate oversight, and that issues of content
> and behavior need to be discussed in more general contexts. Nick
> Ashton-Hart argues this persuasively.  As an example, I would find it
> unproductive to discuss surveillance in the Internet unless it were within
> a more general context of surveillance policy.  In that context, I see the
> Internet as another tool, such as using hidden cameras and microphones,
> tapping voice phone lines and intercepting postal mail.
>
> *On the other hand*, it’s clear that the introduction of the Internet has
> introduced both qualitative and quantitative changes in many areas of life
> and of human behavior, and that mechanisms dealing with them have not
> caught up to dealing with the Internet’s disruptive influence.  Such
> problems often have (at least) two aspects, one technical and the other
> societal.  I would not characterize these as Internet governance problems,
> but rather problems with respect to general governance caused or
> exacerbated by the Introduction of the Internet.
>
> So back to the thought experiment.  If we really do solve the
> accountability and administrative issues related to ICANN and IANA in a
> manner that is widely accepted (admittedly a stretch, but it works for a
> thought experiment), then that is off the agenda.  What’s next on the
> “Internet governance” agenda, and why?  Do the venues for those discussions
> change, or not?  Does the label by which we refer o those discussions
> change, or not?   What is your “to do” list for Internet governance after
> an IANA final solution:
>
> 1. ….
>

1.  With the Accountability and Administrative issues related to ICANN and
IANA solved in a manner that is widely accepted, the first item on the "to
do" is to consider ways of USING the Internet to resolve greater issues
confronting the world at large. The Accountable and Transparent Internet
Governance mechanism could become a forum for the stakeholders of the world
to examine opportunities to bridge gaps in education, for instance, by
connecting schools across nations, worldwide, making it possible for a
student from school in India with relatively modest teaching resources to
connect to benefit from the teaching resources of a school anywhere else,
without contaminating this opportunity with complex Trade laws or
indirectly unaffordable business models. Another example would be that of
collaborating on tele-medicine across borders to make healthcare affordable
where it is not. Global needs could me fulfilled by global resources, where
possible and desirable on non-commercial models of Mutli-stakeholder
collaboration, and by business models in areas where business causes
progress. A The Accepted IG mechanism could explore these positive
macro-development aspects that Internet holds within as a potential promise.

> 2. ….
>

2.  Even though the Accountability and Administrative issues are resolved,
the task that remains is that of sustaining the goodness of such a
mechanism in a manner that the mechanism would further evolve, which
requires attention to the people chosen to frame the policy and those
employed in administrative roles. This requires a highly advanced process
unrestrained by methods of traditional placement of people in International
Public positions. For e.g. we need to think of a process by which
candidates are not chosen by geographic rotation in a geographic sequence
term after term. Or by alternating sequence of gender. Or by Popular vote.
Or by diplomatic maneuvers. The men and women are to be chosen for
positions by a thoughtful process that may be far more more intricate a
process than adopted so far anywhere. No specific suggestions here, what I
am suggesting is a "fuzzy" process, 'fuzzy' as in 'fuzzy logic'. This
requires utmost attention.

> 3. ….
>

3.   Where is your headquarters situated? Could it remain there in a
free-to-fly-in-zone? Could it be moved somewhere else global? Is there a
plot of land anywhere that is Global? Or, could we find a symbolic
alternative? Where will you have other offices? Will Internet have an
office in every continent or every country, or have offices located exactly
5000 kilometers apart from one another, irrespective of the political
geography? How do you transition contracts with due fairness to those
already contracted? How early should the mechanism prepare for transition
in anticipation?

4. ….
>

4.  If surveillance, for e.g, is to be discussed in a separate framework
for surveillance, could the Internet cause to initiate such a mechanism ?
 Could it also participate and to some extent offer to support the
discussions, for the good of the Internet and also for the larger good?
What are those "moral responsibilities" (may not be the right choice of
words) that the Internet Governance Institutions have brushed aside so far
as being 'beyond the mandate or scope'? An Administrator or a Policy maker
might see something as outside the mandate, but the average Internet user
might might see it as neglected areas of responsibility. List the areas
that affect the Internet or affected by the Internet, yet are dismissed as
outside the mandate, and at least THINK about who would address those areas
or how the issues would be solved.

5.  On matters related to revenue, should the Institution remain shy of
allowing a flow of revenues, or adopt policies to allow a flow of revenues
on a model that is easy on the average user from any part of the globe? If
revenues accumulate, how would the institution make use of it? Entirely on
its own Institutional Assets? On Internet infrastructure? Or beyond ? How ?
What would be the sub-structure or separate structure for possible good
work?

Sivasubramanian M

> ….
>
> Opinions welcome.
>
> Finally, if you believe that there is nothing left after an IANA final
> solution, then it might be useful to suggest some of the specify issues
> that you exclude, and suggest suggest specific venues and processes that
> that represent the correct way forward to address those problems.
>
> This is really the issue of what Internet governance is, and is not.  The
> WGIG definition had enough creative generality to navigate a process
> through the political environment of WSIS, but now we are addressing more
> specific issues.  We lack descriptive terms that have enough specificity
> for us to be able to even discuss them without stumbling over definitional
> differences.   That kind of stumbling is not a good use of resources.  If
> we do not share what a word or a phrase means, I don’t see how we can
> discuss it sensibly.  Responses to the proposed thought experiment might
> yield some clarity on this point.
>
> My sense is that the terms ‘Internet coordination’ and ‘Internet
> administration’ are unused terms that could be used to clarify discussions,
> but for some reason they have not been adopted by many others.  Using more
> precise and shared terms to discuss the issues within  the different strata
> of Vint’s diagram, sent in an earlier e-mail, would IMO be very helpful in
> making progress in these discussions.
>
> Let’s concentrate on recognizing, defining and identifying problems  —
>  it’s more important and, at least for me, more satisfying than semantic
> arguments.
>
> George
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>
> On Mar 17, 2014, at 5:22 AM, Nick Ashton-Hart <nashton at ccianet.org> wrote:
>
> Dear Seun, inline responses
>
> On 17 Mar 2014, at 10:11, Seun Ojedeji <seun.ojedeji at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hello Nick,
> On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 9:43 AM, Nick Ashton-Hart <nashton at ccianet.org>wrote:
>
>> I disagree.
>>
>> The international community does need a way to discuss surveillance - but
>> Internet governance is not that venue, for the simple reason that the
>> surveillance issue is about surveillance and not the Internet.
>>
>> The issue of mass surveillance is really asking the question of how do
>> countries treat non-nationals in their national security activities. The
>> fact that the Internet is used as a tool for surveillance is really
>> irrelevant to the question, just as the Internet is used for distribution
>> of illegal material like those related to child exploitation but that is
>> primarily an enforcement of laws issue, not an Internet issue.
>>
>>
> IG does not need to be about everything where there is an Internet
>> dimension - or no solution to any problem can be found.
>>
>> However: the political demands for action over surveillance are impacting
>> the Internet as we all know - so we do have a vested interest in ensuring
>> that the core issue of mass surveillance is addressed, just not primarily
>> by us, and not in IG.
>>
>
> Just to get the flow right, when you say "us" whom do you refer? and when
> you say mass surveillance is not an IG issue then what issue is it? My
> expectation is that the IG platform will provide an avenue to discuss the
> issue and then propose solutions which countries will then turn to legal
> content applicable to them. If the issues are not discussed then it will be
> difficult to know what they are and address them. Bringing then to IG fora
> will help give it a voice that could hopefully get to the listening hears
> of government and relevant authorities.
>
>
> "Us" meaning the IG community. As to what issue it is, it is, as I
> described, an issue of surveillance, not the Internet. So, the human rights
> dimensions are currently being actively addressed in the Human Rights
> Council and related processes. The exchange of data for criminal and
> national security purposes are governed by MLATs (Mutual Legal Assistance
> Treaties) - Access.org <http://access.org/> has an excellent website
> devoted to MLAT reform at www.mlat.info.
>
> Bringing this issue to IG fora will harmfully conflate issues which have
> nothing to do with IG with IG issues, and contaminate (further) Internet
> governance with a great deal of politicisation. I would hope that we all
> don't want to see the security, stability, and universality of the Internet
> further polluted with politics of national security and safety.
>
> As per the NetMundial, i agree with Avri that from recent happenings,
> ICANN-IANA related issues may carry the majority of the agenda which
> ofcourse was not the only reason why the event was conjured in the first
> place. However since the ICANN-IANA discussion will start from ICANN49 i
> think some foundational progress will have been made to further lighten up
> the NetMundial agenda to accommodate the other half of the goal which is
> largely related to mass surveillance.
>
>
> I think if NetMundial is consumed with ICANN issues that will be both a
> mistake and a huge missed opportunities. Finding a way to agree on
> principles, and what is, and is not, appropriate for IG policy to address
> would be a significant added value; there is also no other global forum
> designed to produce outcomes along these lines. The discussion of
> internationalizing ICANN has a home for discussions: ICANN.
>
> I don't think anyone here is disagreeing with recent development on
> ICANN-IANA, as it is good news. However we should also not let that
> overwhelm the other present concerns. Lets remember that the ICANN-IANA
> processes is to prevent the future "what-IFs" while mass surveillance on
> the other hand is currently happening and we should not neglect that.
>
>
> "we" cannot solve national security issues. All we can do is insist that
> the various aspects of national security use of data and the rules by which
> non-nationals are treated are dealt with - in the fora where they are
> already under discussion.
>
>
> Regards
>
>
> Cheers!
>
>>
>>
>> On 17 Mar 2014, at 06:16, parminder <parminder at itforchange.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Sunday 16 March 2014 09:51 PM, Victor Ndonnang wrote:
>>
>> +1 Adiel.
>> Surveillance and intelligence agencies was there before the Internet. Even
>> if the Internet has a role in the mass surveillance...USG/NTIA intent to
>> transfer IANA and root zone management related to the global independent
>> Multistakeholder entity is not a response to the mass surveillance issue.
>>
>>
>> Agree, developments on the ICANN oversight issue do not constitute any
>> real response to mass surveillance problem. And since NetMundial came out
>> of a series of events directly connected to the mass surveillance problem,
>> and which is the main reason the 'global community' invested into it, it is
>> only fair to the people across the world that we have
>>
>> 1. discussions on this issues, and others related to larger international
>> public policy issues pertaining to the Internet , and
>> 2. come up with proposals regarding these issues.
>>
>> I have seen almost nil work on this list in this regard. ICANN oversight
>> issue should not be allowed to overshadow  these much more important and
>> pressing global public policy issues. I fear this is what is happening. A
>> good reason of course is structural about what 1Net is.
>>
>> parminder
>>
>> May be that Global Multistakeholder entity will be the IETF or I... to
>> help
>> strengthen security, privacy and trust on the Internet.
>> The Internet Governance is mainly a technical thing, let's leave the
>> technical community takes care of it with the full participation and
>> inputs
>> of others stakeholders.
>> Regards,
>> Victor.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Message d'origine-----
>> De : discuss-bounces at 1net.org [mailto:discuss-bounces at 1net.org<discuss-bounces at 1net.org>]
>> De la part
>> de Adiel Akplogan
>> Envoyé : Sunday, March 16, 2014 8:48 AM
>> À : Seun Ojedeji
>> Cc : 1 Net List; Civil Society Internet Governance Caucus - IGC
>> Objet : Re: [discuss] [governance] NTIA statement
>>
>> I disagree as well. In this discussion it is very important to dissociate
>> the USG/NTIA by role in the performance of IANA function by ICANN and the
>> issue related to mass surveillance. The two are not technically linked and
>> should be addressed separately.
>>
>> - a.
>>
>> On Mar 16, 2014, at 11:03 AM, Seun Ojedeji <seun.ojedeji at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Well I would not disagree that mass surveillance indeed continues.
>>
>> Any NSA statement that says otherwise?
>>
>> Cheers!
>> sent from Google nexus 4
>> kindly excuse brevity and typos.
>>
>> On 15 Mar 2014 19:08, "Joly MacFie" <joly at punkcast.com> wrote:
>> Disagree,
>>
>> Different department.
>>
>> j
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Mar 15, 2014 at 7:06 AM, Louis Pouzin (well) <pouzin at well.com>
>>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> The IANA ballyhoo comes from the same factory as the "internet freedom"
>>
>> smoke screen launched before WCIT. It's a spin diversion for the show.
>>
>> Mass surveillance continues. What's new ?
>>
>> Louis
>>
>>
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>
> *Seun Ojedeji,Federal University Oye-Ekitiweb:
> http://www.fuoye.edu.ng <http://www.fuoye.edu.ng/> Mobile: +2348035233535**alt
> email: <http://goog_1872880453/>seun.ojedeji at fuoye.edu.ng
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-- 
Sivasubramanian Muthusamy
India +91 99524 03099
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