<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div>Gregori</div><div><br></div><div>That sounds like the utopian solution to this ICANN issue.</div><div><br></div><div>The reality however is far from it. I suspect (and I think its already playing out) that the considerations are going to be as political as ever.</div><div><br></div><div>My take is that NO GOVERNMENT at this point in time has the moral standing to (ok maybe that's a bit harsh) to actually advocate for a new dispensation.</div><div><br></div><div>The closest model I see is that is totally Non-Aligned. Which in my humble opinion means that the private sector for profit and not for profit needs to take the lead on a new ICANN.</div><div><br><div><span style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.294118); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.231373);">Ali Hussein</span></div><div><br></div><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.296875); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; ">+254 0770 906375 / 0713 601113</div><div><span style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); "><br></span></div><div>"I fear the day technology will surpass human interaction. The world will have a generation of idiots". ~ Albert Einstein</div><div><span style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.294118); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.231373);"><br></span></div>Sent from my iPad</div><div><br>On Feb 18, 2014, at 12:28 PM, Grigori Saghyan <<a href="mailto:gregor@arminco.com">gregor@arminco.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><span>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----</span><br><span>Hash: SHA1</span><br><span></span><br><span>Dear Sala, All,</span><br><span>there is no any difference, where is the main office, if ICANN will</span><br><span>keep its current structure. In order to have a real International</span><br><span>organization it is necessary to study the experience of other</span><br><span>international organizations. Red Cross is a good example of</span><br><span>international organization - it is an association of independent local</span><br><span>Red Cross organizations, and the Secretariat of this assosociation has</span><br><span>its HQ in Switzerland. Of course, in case of ICANN it is necessary to</span><br><span>have some kind of guarantees for democratic procedures, like Veto</span><br><span>power, or Security Council (Like UN SC), or other solution.</span><br><span></span><br><span>Grigori Saghyan</span><br><span>ISOC.AM</span><br><span></span><br><span>On 18.02.2014 0:35, Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro wrote:</span><br><blockquote type="cite"><span>If the Board were to meet and pass a resolution to shift its</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>registered office to Geneva, then it would be submitted to the</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>authorities in California to justify a shift afterall ICANN is a</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>not for profit corporation registered under California laws.</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>This could mean expanding the Geneva office and operations but it</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>would still be pretty much a Not for Profit company registered in</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>California with its registered office in Geneva. Conversely one</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>could argue that New York is also home and Headquarters to some of</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>the UN organisations, so even a shift from California to New York</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>is also a viable option.</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>If the institution were to go through structural overhaul where you</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>have several options: a) winding up ICANN and rebirthing ICANN to</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>have diplomatic standing; b)not winding up ICANN but merely</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>shifting its HQ from California to Geneva or New York. c)maintain</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>the status quo but make ICANN more accessible globally as they have</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>been doing with the hubs - (although I still don't know why we </span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>don't have a Pacific Hub yet when the middle east, africa and asia</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>have been getting hubs. There are 27 countries and territories in</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>the Pacific region that have ccTLDs and we should receive</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>indiscriminate treatment)</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>There are several glitches that would need to be ironed out and</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>that is whether the decision must revert to IETF or to the wider</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>community or solely by NTIA and by extension the US Department of</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>Commerce. At some stage if there were a legal battle in the US to</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>determine who assigned the IANA function, there is potentially</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>enough evidence for it to flip either way - to the IETF or to NTIA.</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>There are all kinds of issues such as whether one of them could</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>have been perceived to have waived their assignment rights and</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>whether this was done tacitly. Either way, it is calculated chaos.</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>Offices can be opened and manned in different location but the</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>concern *_would be in keeping the core critical internet</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>infrastructure within the US_* so as not to interfere with</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>Security, stability and resiliency.</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>On Tue, Feb 18, 2014 at 8:04 AM, George Sadowsky </span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span><<a href="mailto:george.sadowsky@gmail.com">george.sadowsky@gmail.com</a> <<a href="mailto:george.sadowsky@gmail.com">mailto:george.sadowsky@gmail.com</a>>></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>wrote:</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>Brian,</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>I think that you are quite right in terms of formal</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>accountability.</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>However, given the importance of the Internet today and in the </span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>future, I don’t think that the world will be at all comfortable </span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>putting ICANN in the hands of a 16 (or 20, depending upon how you </span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>count) member Board of Directors. I think that’s the case even if </span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>the Board were to magically be able to internalize IANA within</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>ICANN completely and move to, say, Geneva.</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>We could, as you suggest, look at Board selection processes again. </span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>An earlier attempt to select Directors through direct voting</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>failed badly, in my opinion, but there are a whole range of</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>possibilities that could be explored.</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>Legal issues need to be addressed. What type of organization</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>would ICANN be if it performed the magic trick above and was</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>headquartered in, say, Geneva? What legal status, and equally</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>important, protections, would it need and what would it have? I</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>wish some of the diplomats and lawyers subscribed to this list</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>would make contributions that address these questions.</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>George</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>On Feb 17, 2014, at 2:39 PM, Brian E Carpenter </span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span><<a href="mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a> <<a href="mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>>> </span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>wrote:</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>On 18/02/2014 02:22, George Sadowsky wrote:</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>All,</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>If we want to move forward from Ian Peter’s conclusion below,</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>the</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>accountability framework for ICANN becomes crucial, which is why I </span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>quoted earlier from Jovan’s two diplomacy-based options. ICANN</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>can internalize IANA without a problem, but then how is ICANN made </span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>accountable in a manner that both leaves the degrees of freedom it </span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>needs to operate effectively and ensures effective global</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>oversight over its activities?</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>Maybe I'm naive (and maybe sometimes that is a good thing to</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>be), but it seems to me that ICANN is accountable to its Board</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>and its Board members are accountable to the communities that</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>select them.</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>If there's an accountability problem, surely we'd need to look at</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>the Board selection processes again?</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>Brian</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>_______________________________________________ discuss mailing</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>list <a href="mailto:discuss@1net.org">discuss@1net.org</a> <<a href="mailto:discuss@1net.org">mailto:discuss@1net.org</a>> </span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span><a href="http://1net-mail.1net.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss">http://1net-mail.1net.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss</a></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>_______________________________________________ discuss mailing</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>list <a href="mailto:discuss@1net.org">discuss@1net.org</a> </span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span><a href="http://1net-mail.1net.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss">http://1net-mail.1net.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss</a></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><span></span><br><span></span><br><span>- -- </span><br><span>Grigori Saghyan</span><br><span>PGP Key ID: 0x48E4D5DC</span><br><span>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----</span><br><span>Version: GnuPG v2.0.21 (MingW32)</span><br><span>Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - <a href="http://www.enigmail.net/">http://www.enigmail.net/</a></span><br><span></span><br><span>iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJTAyerAAoJEBp2GIFI5NXc22MH/i4Hoes97Wb52BPWB2ukst6U</span><br><span>qIdffS6qsYHD6geOyIxeG605vGHe0x6C+hdx0fPipzwESzEL4Am3JD54T1lqjVar</span><br><span>ajvMBNsWLRY6KVa39bjBPlQDqsAAzWT97FyUY8dWTEkz5dyd/oThygvO7s7CGa4e</span><br><span>c5KCSL0IwT2RXp23aQF1nQdf/eERlvjBriZIPbsvJRQj9ioiulpo6FGf7vqsuRRR</span><br><span>Fxx0khsthf37FKPxCtKSGdRHF+IdiCkoGghz1YPlarjynUkbQkEYgFLW3dTa+4Xq</span><br><span>KJJPPEBFfon8XeT3RkWijbVRRTqXMZz3msvUVa2rj0vARYtxQL3KuOqd8WmLr/I=</span><br><span>=s6W4</span><br><span>-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----</span><br><span></span><br><span>_______________________________________________</span><br><span>discuss mailing list</span><br><span><a href="mailto:discuss@1net.org">discuss@1net.org</a></span><br><span><a href="http://1net-mail.1net.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss">http://1net-mail.1net.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss</a></span><br></div></blockquote></body></html>