<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div>Milton, many social and political systems dealing with authority are hierarchical and not arguably different from system hierarchy ?</div><div>Nii</div><div><br>On Mar 8, 2014, at 21:59, Milton L Mueller <<a href="mailto:mueller@syr.edu">mueller@syr.edu</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">> </span>I am learning that I can count on you for a dismissive pedantic
<span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">>
</span>comment that overstates the obvious and contains little if any <span style="color:#1F497D">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">> </span>contribution to the discussion. (:-)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">George:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Calm down. My comment was a challenge, not a dismissal. You may have perceived it as dismissive (though it was nowhere near as dismissive as your own first
sentence above) but it was neither pedantic nor, alas, obvious - and given the 500 word paragraph you wrote in response I would judge that it contributed something to the discussion. To your points:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">> </span>More seriously, there is a range, or spectrum, of Internet governance
<span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">>
</span>concerns that are highly technical at one end and raise existential <span style="color:#1F497D">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">>
</span>societal concerns at the other end. <span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Yes. But they are not “layered.” Here is a definition of layers in software:
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">“</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">In computer programming, layering is the organization of programming into separate
functional components that interact in some sequential and hierarchical way, with each layer usually having an interface only to the layer above it and the layer below it.”
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">This ain’t how governance institutions work. All I am asking is that you break out of that inappropriate metaphor. It really is an obstacle to appropriate analysis
of the governance problems. Can you afford my institutional and policy expertise the same respect as I would afford, say, Vint Cerf’s technical expertise?
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">> </span>I noted that national governments were missing from
<span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">>
</span>Vint’s diagram, and I believe that a they need to be added <span style="color:#1F497D">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">>
</span>because they have responsibility, individually and collectively, <span style="color:#1F497D">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">>
</span>to address many of these problems that are toward the upper <span style="color:#1F497D">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">>
</span>layers, or toward one end of the spectrum, in a productive manner.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Again, your layer model is causing you problems. If governments believe that the Internet creates societal issues, they will reach for whatever tools or mechanisms
give them leverage on that problem, regardless of what “layer” you happen to think it resides in. I don’t think you are helping us deal with IG problems by asserting that there is something called the “societal layer” which is different from the “technical
layer” because the technical standardization process are fundamentally social and economic and institutional
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">If governments cannot control behavior what they want to control, they might very well decide to intervene in what you call the technical “layer.” E.g., SOPA
and PIPA tried to enlist the DNS and IP addressing in the cause of copyright protection. Or national govts could decide to regulate information-communications standards themselves (as many did 40 years ago). If you see the “societal” as a “layer,” distinct
from the “technical” you will not understand how or why this is happening.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">> </span>My concern with regarding a space like Internet governance as a
<span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">>
</span>set of simultaneous and interwoven problems is that it’s difficult to <span style="color:#1F497D">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">>
</span>solve any one without trying to solve many of them at the same time. <span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">>
</span>While it is true that there are interrelationships, I don’t think that <span style="color:#1F497D">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">>
</span>there is any magic bullet that will do that.<span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I have never asserted that a “magic bullet” will solve all internet governance problems. So I really don’t know what you are asserting here.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">What I am asserting is that you just need to alter your analytical paradigm. You are in a political-economy arena now, and need political economy and international
relations concepts to understand what’s going on. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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