<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51,51,51)">Dear Ian,</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51,51,51)">
<br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51,51,51)">Thank you for responding to me. It is not actually Utopian thinking, but what a certain author calls "upside-down thinking". Gandhi blamed Indians, not Britons for the occupation of India. In the same line of thinking, if the rest of the world understands that the overwhelming American Internet presence is due to the absence of similar efforts by the the rest of the World, we will have a smooth resolution to the imbalances. At the moment I would rather admire Google and Facebook :)</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51,51,51)"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51,51,51)">While I have asked Parminder to cast his vote for the Internet eco-system in order to fight for the Global South, I would try and charm you into upside-down thinking. Join me, and even by your own terminology, our Utopian thinking could together produce magical results in a mind before matter Universe.</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51,51,51)"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51,51,51)">An occurrence that could endorse such thinking :</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51,51,51)"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51,51,51)"><a href="http://www.icann.org/en/news/announcements/announcement-14mar14-en.htm">http://www.icann.org/en/news/announcements/announcement-14mar14-en.htm</a></div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51,51,51)"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51,51,51)">Sivasubramanian M</div>
</div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Mar 15, 2014 at 12:52 AM, Ian Peter <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:ian.peter@ianpeter.com" target="_blank">ian.peter@ianpeter.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Calibri'">
<div>very utopian Siva.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>But I can give you countless examples of small businesses that had promise
being taken over/squashed by large dominant corporations in the internet sphere.
The internet is not immune to the practices of dominant corporations and there
is no level playing field.</div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div style="font-style:normal;font-size:small;display:inline;text-decoration:none;font-family:'Calibri';font-weight:normal">
<div style="FONT:10pt tahoma">
<div> </div>
<div style="BACKGROUND:#f5f5f5">
<div><b>From:</b> <a title="isolatedn@gmail.com" href="mailto:isolatedn@gmail.com" target="_blank">Sivasubramanian M</a> </div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, March 15, 2014 5:22 AM</div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a title="parminder@itforchange.net" href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net" target="_blank">parminder</a> </div>
<div><b>Cc:</b> <a title="discuss@1net.org" href="mailto:discuss@1net.org" target="_blank">1Net
List</a> </div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> Re: [discuss] JustNet Coalition contribution on Roadmap for
the further evolution of the internet governance ecosystem for
Netmundial.br</div></div></div>
<div> </div></div>
<div style="font-style:normal;font-size:small;display:inline;text-decoration:none;font-family:'Calibri';font-weight:normal"><div><div class="h5">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default" style="FONT-SIZE:small;FONT-FAMILY:verdana,sans-serif;COLOR:rgb(51,51,51)">Dear
Parminder,</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="FONT-SIZE:small;FONT-FAMILY:verdana,sans-serif;COLOR:rgb(51,51,51)"> </div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="FONT-SIZE:small;FONT-FAMILY:verdana,sans-serif;COLOR:rgb(51,51,51)">My
response is also inline :)</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Mar 14, 2014 at 10:44 PM, parminder <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net" target="_blank">parminder@itforchange.net</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT:1ex;MARGIN:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;BORDER-LEFT:rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><font face="Verdana">Dear Siva<br><br>pl
see inline....<br><br></font>
<div>
<div>On Friday 14 March 2014 06:00 PM, sivasubramanian muthusamy
wrote:<br></div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr"><span style="FONT-SIZE:13px;FONT-FAMILY:arial,sans-serif">Dear
Parminder,</span>
<div style="FONT-SIZE:13px;FONT-FAMILY:arial,sans-serif"> </div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE:13px;FONT-FAMILY:arial,sans-serif"> </div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE:13px;FONT-FAMILY:arial,sans-serif">1, It is
interesting to note that what you have observed "Things are not going in the
right directions with the evolution of the Internet vis a vis canons of
equity and social justice (for instance, 10 top websites had respectively
25, 50 and 75 percent of the total page views in the US in 2000, 2005 and
2010, and things have gone considerably worse since)." Are these
websites or networks of websites? Even if this data pertains to
"networks of websites", it would be interesting, please provide a
list.</div></div></blockquote><br></div>I provide as the quote occurs in an IT
for Change annual report "John Bellamy Foster and Robert W. McChesney discuss
this in their commentary on 'The Internet’s Unholy Marriage to
Capitalism', noting how “we are entering a world of digital feudalism, where
a handful of colossal corporate mega-giants rule private empires.... the
top 10 Web sites accounted for 31 percent of US page views in 2001, 40
percent in 2006, and about 75 percent in 2010...” (Monthly Review, March
2011)". Sorry my numbers were slightly off, and the actual facts show an even
worse deterioration between 2005 and 2010. <br>
<div><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="FONT-SIZE:13px;FONT-FAMILY:arial,sans-serif"> </div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE:13px;FONT-FAMILY:arial,sans-serif">2. I am
also interested in learning from you if there are any barriers for entry for
anyone from India or Brazil to publish and promote such a "website" and gain
a traffic share. Please point me to any licensing barriers or growth
bottlenecks for any one from the Global South to build such a
network.</div></div></blockquote><br></div>Well, one can also say, please show
me any licensing barrier or growth bottleneck for poor people to become rich
and developing countries to become developed! </div></blockquote>
<div> </div>
<div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="FONT-SIZE:small;FONT-FAMILY:verdana,sans-serif;COLOR:rgb(51,51,51)">Poor
people are slow to become rich and the rich become richer. That much I agree. In
the conventional business </div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="FONT-SIZE:small;FONT-FAMILY:verdana,sans-serif;COLOR:rgb(51,51,51)">eco-system,
it has not been possible, until recently, for a business firm a developing
economy to globally compete with Western mega corporations, at least in some
sectors. There have been barriers, visible and invisible. </div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="FONT-SIZE:small;FONT-FAMILY:verdana,sans-serif;COLOR:rgb(51,51,51)"> </div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="FONT-SIZE:small;FONT-FAMILY:verdana,sans-serif;COLOR:rgb(51,51,51)">Internet
is free of such barriers, at least on a visible level. There may be some
intricate barriers, but at like how it has been before the Internet. Internet
has brought about a transformation. The Hope for the rest of the world comes
from the borderless, One Internet, which is free and open. It so happens that
"<span style="FONT-SIZE:16px;FONT-FAMILY:'Trebuchet MS','Lucida Grande',arial,helvetica,sans-serif;COLOR:rgb(68,68,68);LINE-HEIGHT:22px;BACKGROUND-COLOR:rgb(239,241,241)">Firms
such as Google, Amazon, Craigslist, and Facebook have become iconic"
</span>to quote from your source. My point is that there isn't an evil design
behind the success of these corporations, they merely made use of the
opportunities Internet presented, and succeeded. What prevents any one or any
business firm from any other country from starting a search engine, a book store
or a social network? In Internet there are no start up barriers, so it is the
eco-system of hope. The strength of the eco-system comes from being borderless
and global, so any argument to create divisions, even for rhetoric reasons,
would lead to policies that would result in balkanization of the Internet, which
would negatively alter the Internet eco-system and cause to perpetuate the very
imbalance between the rich and poor. </div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="FONT-SIZE:small;FONT-FAMILY:verdana,sans-serif;COLOR:rgb(51,51,51)"> </div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="FONT-SIZE:small;FONT-FAMILY:verdana,sans-serif;COLOR:rgb(51,51,51)">Hope
for the "Global South" lies in preserving the Internet eco-system of
permissionless-innovation, which as an eco-system barely 20 years old, happens
to have caused a relatively minor imbalance of a few American (and other)
Corporations making visibly significant business gains. I would have no
complaints about their business gains, but if your concern lies beyond this, I
would argue that eventually there will be a balance, and the hope for such a
balance comes from the very eco-system about which you have complaints, for it
allows anyone to create a search engine, perhaps better than what Google has
created :)</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="FONT-SIZE:small;FONT-FAMILY:verdana,sans-serif;COLOR:rgb(51,51,51)"> </div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="FONT-SIZE:small;FONT-FAMILY:verdana,sans-serif;COLOR:rgb(51,51,51)">Dear
Parminder, If you want to fight for the Global South, then fight to preserve the
Internet eco-system. </div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="FONT-SIZE:small;FONT-FAMILY:verdana,sans-serif;COLOR:rgb(51,51,51)"> </div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="FONT-SIZE:small;FONT-FAMILY:verdana,sans-serif;COLOR:rgb(51,51,51)">Sivasubramanian
M</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="FONT-SIZE:small;FONT-FAMILY:verdana,sans-serif;COLOR:rgb(51,51,51)"> </div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="FONT-SIZE:small;FONT-FAMILY:verdana,sans-serif;COLOR:rgb(51,51,51)"></div></div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT:1ex;MARGIN:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;BORDER-LEFT:rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">After all poor are poor because they are
lazy and ignorant, and developing countries are lagging because a large
majority of its people are lazy and ignorant... What has any kind of global
structural conditions to do with it, and thus where is their any role for any
kind of political approach to such issues.<br><br>I had thought that Social
Darwinism was rather disreputable a social theory to be cited in global
political discourse.<br><br>regards<span><font color="#888888"><br>parminder
<br></font></span>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="FONT-SIZE:13px;FONT-FAMILY:arial,sans-serif"> </div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE:13px;FONT-FAMILY:arial,sans-serif"> </div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE:13px;FONT-FAMILY:arial,sans-serif">Thank you</div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE:13px;FONT-FAMILY:arial,sans-serif">Sivasubramanian
M</div></div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Mar 14, 2014 at 2:07 PM, parminder <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net" target="_blank">parminder@itforchange.net</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT:1ex;MARGIN:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;BORDER-LEFT:rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<p style="MARGIN-BOTTOM:0cm">While we are on this subject, it may be
useful for the 1Net to recognise that many actors do not think the '
ICANN/IANA issue' should be the main concern of NetMundial.... Reading the
minutes of the recent High Level Committee meeting for NetMundial, I see
France say this clearly, and ICANN rep agree to it. </p>
<p style="MARGIN-BOTTOM:0cm">Now, even if we are to take that ICANN/IANA
will only be half of the story at NetMundial, should we do some discussion
on the other half as well? Beginning perhaps with recognizing what this
other half is. </p>
<p style="MARGIN-BOTTOM:0cm">I take it to the broader public policy
issues related to the Internet which are either inherently global, like
general jurisdictional disputes and global mass surveillance, or have very
significant global implications, for instance, net neutrality and economic
of personal data. </p>
<p style="MARGIN-BOTTOM:0cm">What kind of global Internet governance
mechanisms are required to address these pressing global issues?</p>
<p style="MARGIN-BOTTOM:0cm">I certainly take the need for urgent
addressing of these issues to be of much greater important than the
ICANN/IANA issue. Also, remember that President Rousseff's UN Speech which
precipitated matter and set us on the road to Sao Paolo had nothing to do
with the ICANN/IANA issue and everything to do with these other
issues.</p><span><font color="#888888">
<p style="MARGIN-BOTTOM:0cm">Parminder </p></font></span>
<div>
<div>
<p style="MARGIN-BOTTOM:0cm"> </p>
<div>On Friday 14 March 2014 01:05 PM, parminder wrote:<br></div>
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
<div>On Tuesday 11 March 2014 05:33 PM, S Moonesamy wrote:<br></div>
<blockquote type="cite">Hi Parminder, <br>At 02:29 11-03-2014, <a href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net" target="_blank">parminder@itforchange.net</a> wrote: <br>
<blockquote type="cite">The preamble is the same, however the
operative part is different. It <br>provided a roadmap for
institutional reform in global governance. The <br>earlier document
was about principles for Internet governance. <br><br>Happy to
provide any further clarification. <br></blockquote><br>If one of the
aims of the proposal is to help developing countries, could you please
explain how it would help such a country? <br></blockquote><br>
<p style="MARGIN-BOTTOM:0cm">Dear Moonesamy,<br></p>
<p style="MARGIN-BOTTOM:0cm">I am happy to explain...</p>
<p style="MARGIN-BOTTOM:0cm">To understand how the <a href="http://content.netmundial.br/contribution/democratising-global-governance-of-the-internet/164%20" target="_blank">proposal</a> from Just Net Coalition helps developing
countries one needs to first understand 'what and who' shapes the
evolution of the Internet today, as the Internet itself shapes our
larger social structures, whereby the impact of this 'what and who' goes
rather far and deep...</p>
<p style="MARGIN-BOTTOM:0cm">To keep it brief, it is my understanding
that the following key political and economic forces shape the Internet
today, in the decreasing order of impact;</p>
<ol>
<li>
<p style="MARGIN-BOTTOM:0cm">Extravagant profit motives of a few
global corporation, almost all US based;</p>
</li><li>
<p style="MARGIN-BOTTOM:0cm">The laws and policies of the US, which
are enforced, overtly and subtly, on these global corporation;
and,<br></p>
</li><li>
<p style="MARGIN-BOTTOM:0cm">Policy framework of some clubs of rich
countries, like the OECD and CoE (for instance, OCED's principles for
Internet policy making).</p></li></ol>
<p style="MARGIN-BOTTOM:0cm">There is huge nexus between 1 and 2, which
together constitute the most powerful, in fact, quite overwhelming,
force shaping the Internet today. Meanwhile, the US is largely able to
bull-dodge its way with regard to 3 above as well. </p>
<p style="MARGIN-BOTTOM:0cm">Apart from the above, Internet technical
standards and critical resource management bodies, also have a strong
impact. These bodies have swung between doing extremely good work to
frequent capture by the above corporate interests. In my view, their
public policy oversight while important is relatively the lesser problem
right now as compared to other issues listed above. </p>
<p style="MARGIN-BOTTOM:0cm">Now, before we move forward to frame a
response to the basic question you asked, 'how does the Just Net
Coalition's (JNC) <a href="http://content.netmundial.br/contribution/democratising-global-governance-of-the-internet/164%20" target="_blank">proposal</a> help developing countries', we need to form
some level of agreement on two propositions.</p>
<ol>
<li>
<p style="MARGIN-BOTTOM:0cm">The above is largely the right picture
of the forces that are shaping the Internet today.</p>
</li><li>
<p style="MARGIN-BOTTOM:0cm">Things are not going in the right
directions with the evolution of the Internet vis a vis canons of
equity and social justice (for instance, 10 top websites had
respectively 25, 50 and 75 percent of the total page views in the US
in 2000, 2005 and 2010, and things have gone considerably worse
since).</p></li></ol>If you strongly disagree with either of the above
two propositions, JNC's proposal will make no sense to you. But if you
do agree, there is a lot of ground for us to look at remedial political
solutions. And I am ready to take up such a discussion, admitting that
our proposed solution may only be one among many possible, and even
perhaps not the best one. Our group, in its collective wisdom, thought
that what is needed in the current context is an counter-magnetic field
to the highly dominant forces today, that would be created by developing
an anchor point inside the UN system which begins to undertake normative
discussions on issues of Internet policies, and where needed comes up
with higher norms and principles (as OECD has come up with), policy
frameworks, and as and when needed, binding conventions and treaties.As
happens with every sector in the UN, it will be much more about
developing higher norms and principles, much fewer policy frameworks and
rather infrequent conventions or treaties.... <br>
<p style="MARGIN-BOTTOM:0cm">Such a counter magnetic field alone can
even begin balancing the lopsidedness of the current political and
economic model around the Internet, and it goes to reason that such a
balancing will serve the interests of developing countries, in fact of
all marginalized groups everywhere in the world.I hope you agree.
<br></p>
<p style="MARGIN-BOTTOM:0cm">Regards</p>
<p style="MARGIN-BOTTOM:0cm">parminder</p><br><br><br><br><br><br>
<blockquote type="cite"><br>Regards, <br>S. Moonesamy
<br><br></blockquote><br></blockquote><br></div></div></div><br>_______________________________________________<br>discuss
mailing list<br><a href="mailto:discuss@1net.org" target="_blank">discuss@1net.org</a><br><a href="http://1net-mail.1net.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss" target="_blank">http://1net-mail.1net.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss</a><br>
</blockquote></div>
<div> </div></div></blockquote><br></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all">
<div> </div>-- <br>Sivasubramanian Muthusamy<br>India <a href="tel:%2B91%2099524%2003099" value="+919952403099" target="_blank">+91 99524 03099</a>
<div class="gmail_default" style="FONT-SIZE:small;FONT-FAMILY:verdana,sans-serif;COLOR:rgb(51,51,51);DISPLAY:inline"></div></div></div>
</div></div><p>
</p><hr><div class="">
_______________________________________________<br>discuss mailing
list<br><a href="mailto:discuss@1net.org" target="_blank">discuss@1net.org</a><br><a href="http://1net-mail.1net.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss" target="_blank">http://1net-mail.1net.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss</a></div><p>
</p></div></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br>Sivasubramanian Muthusamy<br>India +91 99524 03099
</div>