<div dir="ltr">Parminder,<div><br></div><div>the logical next step is to ask you to resend your message complete with what seems to be an involuntarily ommitted part, the list of issues you consider should be dealt with.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Alejandro Pisanty</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 4:58 AM, parminder <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net" target="_blank">parminder@itforchange.net</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<font face="Verdana">Agree with George,<br>
<br>
There is a serious need for this thought experiment. <br>
<br>
Lets devote at least half of our consciousness to this thought
experiment - take it that ICANN side problems are all solved.<br>
<br>
What other things, perhaps more important than 'ICANN issues' is
NetMundial supposed to address. <br>
<br>
I do not agree with George or Nick that non 'ICANN side issues'
are not Internet governance issues. But lets discuss different
positions on these issues in any case..<br>
<br>
parminder <br>
<br>
</font>
<div>On Monday 17 March 2014 10:42 PM,
George Sadowsky wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
All,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I would like to focus on a broader issue raised by the
interesting discussion below. It has been touched on before,
but I think it’s useful to go somewhat further.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I see the issue as what is the appropriate domain of
'Internet governance' concerns. And that leads immediately to
what we think the domain of concern of “Internet governance’ is,
i.e. how we define it.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><b>I’d like to propose a thought experiment.</b> Suppose
that by 30 September 2015, somehow “we” have created an
appropriate accountability mechanism to replace NTIA’s current
responsibilities. Further, suppose that (1) NTIA accepted it
and proceeded to make the transfer to the new mechanism, and (2)
there was very broad general agreement across multiple
stakeholder groups globally that this was a transition that was
worth supporting.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><b>What, then, would we discuss next?</b></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><b>On the one hand</b>, some of us argue that Internet
governance is really the appropriate construction of Internet
administration and coordination mechanisms, with their
appropriate oversight, and that issues of content and behavior
need to be discussed in more general contexts. Nick Ashton-Hart
argues this persuasively. As an example, I would find it
unproductive to discuss surveillance in the Internet unless it
were within a more general context of surveillance policy. In
that context, I see the Internet as another tool, such as using
hidden cameras and microphones, tapping voice phone lines and
intercepting postal mail. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><b>On the other hand</b>, it’s clear that the introduction of
the Internet has introduced both qualitative and quantitative
changes in many areas of life and of human behavior, and that
mechanisms dealing with them have not caught up to dealing with
the Internet’s disruptive influence. Such problems often have
(at least) two aspects, one technical and the other societal. I
would not characterize these as Internet governance problems,
but rather problems with respect to general governance caused or
exacerbated by the Introduction of the Internet.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>So back to the thought experiment. If we really do solve the
accountability and administrative issues related to ICANN and
IANA in a manner that is widely accepted (admittedly a stretch,
but it works for a thought experiment), then that is off the
agenda. What’s next on the “Internet governance” agenda, and
why? Do the venues for those discussions change, or not? Does
the label by which we refer o those discussions change, or not?
What is your “to do” list for Internet governance after an
IANA final solution: </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>1. ….</div>
<div>2. ….</div>
<div>3. ….</div>
<div>4. ….</div>
<div>….</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Opinions welcome.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Finally, if you believe that there is nothing left after an
IANA final solution, then it might be useful to suggest some of
the specify issues that you exclude, and suggest suggest
specific venues and processes that that represent the correct
way forward to address those problems.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>This is really the issue of what Internet governance is, and
is not. The WGIG definition had enough creative generality to
navigate a process through the political environment of WSIS,
but now we are addressing more specific issues. We lack
descriptive terms that have enough specificity for us to be able
to even discuss them without stumbling over definitional
differences. That kind of stumbling is not a good use of
resources. If we do not share what a word or a phrase means, I
don’t see how we can discuss it sensibly. Responses to the
proposed thought experiment might yield some clarity on this
point.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>My sense is that the terms ‘Internet coordination’ and
‘Internet administration’ are unused terms that could be used to
clarify discussions, but for some reason they have not been
adopted by many others. Using more precise and shared terms to
discuss the issues within the different strata of Vint’s
diagram, sent in an earlier e-mail, would IMO be very helpful in
making progress in these discussions. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Let’s concentrate on recognizing, defining and identifying
problems — it’s more important and, at least for me, more
satisfying than semantic arguments.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>George</div>
<div> </div>
<div>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>On Mar 17, 2014, at 5:22 AM, Nick Ashton-Hart <<a href="mailto:nashton@ccianet.org" target="_blank">nashton@ccianet.org</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word">Dear Seun, inline
responses<br>
<br>
<div>
<div>On 17 Mar 2014, at 10:11, Seun Ojedeji <<a href="mailto:seun.ojedeji@gmail.com" target="_blank">seun.ojedeji@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Hello Nick,<br>
<div>
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at
9:43 AM, Nick Ashton-Hart <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:nashton@ccianet.org" target="_blank">nashton@ccianet.org</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">I disagree.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The international community does need a
way to discuss surveillance - but Internet
governance is not that venue, for the
simple reason that the surveillance issue
is about surveillance and not the
Internet. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The issue of mass surveillance is
really asking the question of how do
countries treat non-nationals in their
national security activities. The fact
that the Internet is used as a tool for
surveillance is really irrelevant to the
question, just as the Internet is used for
distribution of illegal material like
those related to child exploitation but
that is primarily an enforcement of laws
issue, not an Internet issue.</div>
<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word">
<div>IG does not need to be about
everything where there is an Internet
dimension - or no solution to any
problem can be found.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>However: the political demands for
action over surveillance are impacting
the Internet as we all know - so we do
have a vested interest in ensuring that
the core issue of mass surveillance is
addressed, just not primarily by us, and
not in IG.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Just to get the flow right, when you say
"us" whom do you refer? and when you say
mass surveillance is not an IG issue then
what issue is it? My expectation is that the
IG platform will provide an avenue to
discuss the issue and then propose solutions
which countries will then turn to legal
content applicable to them. If the issues
are not discussed then it will be difficult
to know what they are and address them.
Bringing then to IG fora will help give it a
voice that could hopefully get to the
listening hears of government and relevant
authorities. <br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>"Us" meaning the IG community. As to what issue it
is, it is, as I described, an issue of surveillance,
not the Internet. So, the human rights dimensions are
currently being actively addressed in the Human Rights
Council and related processes. The exchange of data
for criminal and national security purposes are
governed by MLATs (Mutual Legal Assistance Treaties) -
<a href="http://access.org/" target="_blank">Access.org</a>
has an excellent website devoted to MLAT reform at <a href="http://www.mlat.info/" target="_blank">www.mlat.info</a>.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Bringing this issue to IG fora will harmfully
conflate issues which have nothing to do with IG with
IG issues, and contaminate (further) Internet
governance with a great deal of politicisation. I
would hope that we all don't want to see the security,
stability, and universality of the Internet further
polluted with politics of national security and
safety.</div>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">As per the NetMundial, i
agree with Avri that from recent happenings,
ICANN-IANA related issues may carry the majority
of the agenda which ofcourse was not the only
reason why the event was conjured in the first
place. However since the ICANN-IANA discussion
will start from ICANN49 i think some
foundational progress will have been made to
further lighten up the NetMundial agenda to
accommodate the other half of the goal which is
largely related to mass surveillance.</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I think if NetMundial is consumed with ICANN issues
that will be both a mistake and a huge missed
opportunities. Finding a way to agree on principles,
and what is, and is not, appropriate for IG policy to
address would be a significant added value; there is
also no other global forum designed to produce
outcomes along these lines. The discussion of
internationalizing ICANN has a home for discussions:
ICANN.</div>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">I don't think anyone here
is disagreeing with recent development on
ICANN-IANA, as it is good news. However we
should also not let that overwhelm the other
present concerns. Lets remember that the
ICANN-IANA processes is to prevent the future
"what-IFs" while mass surveillance on the other
hand is currently happening and we should not
neglect that.</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>"we" cannot solve national security issues. All we
can do is insist that the various aspects of national
security use of data and the rules by which
non-nationals are treated are dealt with - in the fora
where they are already under discussion.</div>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>Regards<br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Cheers!<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word">
<div>
<div><br>
<br>
<div>
<div>On 17 Mar 2014, at 06:16,
parminder <<a href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net" target="_blank">parminder@itforchange.net</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div style="font-size:16px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<br>
On Sunday 16 March 2014 09:51 PM,
Victor Ndonnang wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite">+1 Adiel.<br>
Surveillance and intelligence
agencies was there before the
Internet. Even<br>
if the Internet has a role in
the mass surveillance...USG/NTIA
intent to<br>
transfer IANA and root zone
management related to the global
independent<br>
Multistakeholder entity is not a
response to the mass
surveillance issue.<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
Agree, developments on the ICANN
oversight issue do not constitute
any real response to mass
surveillance problem. And since
NetMundial came out of a series of
events directly connected to the
mass surveillance problem, and
which is the main reason the
'global community' invested into
it, it is only fair to the people
across the world that we have<br>
<br>
1. discussions on this issues, and
others related to larger
international public policy issues
pertaining to the Internet , and<br>
2. come up with proposals
regarding these issues.<br>
<br>
I have seen almost nil work on
this list in this regard. ICANN
oversight issue should not be
allowed to overshadow these much
more important and pressing global
public policy issues. I fear this
is what is happening. A good
reason of course is structural
about what 1Net is.<br>
<br>
parminder<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">May be
that Global Multistakeholder
entity will be the IETF or I...
to help<br>
strengthen security, privacy and
trust on the Internet.<br>
The Internet Governance is
mainly a technical thing, let's
leave the<br>
technical community takes care
of it with the full
participation and inputs<br>
of others stakeholders.<br>
Regards,<br>
Victor.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
-----Message d'origine-----<br>
De : <a href="mailto:discuss-bounces@1net.org" target="_blank">discuss-bounces@1net.org</a>
[<a href="mailto:discuss-bounces@1net.org" target="_blank">mailto:discuss-bounces@1net.org</a>]
De la part<br>
de Adiel Akplogan<br>
Envoy� : Sunday, March 16, 2014
8:48 AM<br>
� : Seun Ojedeji<br>
Cc : 1 Net List; Civil Society
Internet Governance Caucus - IGC<br>
Objet : Re: [discuss]
[governance] NTIA statement<br>
<br>
I disagree as well. In this
discussion it is very important
to dissociate<br>
the USG/NTIA by role in the
performance of IANA function by
ICANN and the<br>
issue related to mass
surveillance. The two are not
technically linked and<br>
should be addressed separately.<br>
<br>
- a.<br>
<br>
On Mar 16, 2014, at 11:03 AM,
Seun Ojedeji <<a href="mailto:seun.ojedeji@gmail.com" target="_blank">seun.ojedeji@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">Well I
would not disagree that mass
surveillance indeed continues.<br>
<br>
Any NSA statement that says
otherwise?<br>
<br>
Cheers!<br>
sent from Google nexus 4<br>
kindly excuse brevity and
typos.<br>
<br>
On 15 Mar 2014 19:08, "Joly
MacFie" <<a href="mailto:joly@punkcast.com" target="_blank">joly@punkcast.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
Disagree,<br>
<br>
Different department.<br>
<br>
j<br>
<br>
<br>
On Sat, Mar 15, 2014 at 7:06
AM, Louis Pouzin (well) <<a href="mailto:pouzin@well.com" target="_blank">pouzin@well.com</a>><br>
</blockquote>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite">Hi,<br>
<br>
The IANA ballyhoo comes from
the same factory as the
"internet freedom"<br>
</blockquote>
smoke screen launched before
WCIT. It's a spin diversion for
the show.<br>
<blockquote type="cite">Mass
surveillance continues. What's
new ?<br>
<br>
Louis<br>
<br>
<br>
____________________________________________________________<br>
You received this message as a
subscriber on the list:<br>
<a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org" target="_blank">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a><br>
To be removed from the list,
visit:<br>
<a href="http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing" target="_blank">http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing</a><br>
<br>
For all other list information
and functions, see:<br>
<a href="http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance" target="_blank">http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance</a><br>
To edit your profile and to
find the IGC's charter, see:<br>
<a href="http://www.igcaucus.org/" target="_blank">http://www.igcaucus.org/</a><br>
<br>
Translate this email: <a href="http://translate.google.com/translate_t" target="_blank">http://translate.google.com/translate_t</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
---------------------------------------------------------------<br>
Joly MacFie 218 565 9365 <a>Skype:punkcast</a>
WWWhatsup NYC -<br>
<a href="http://wwwhatsup.com/" target="_blank">http://wwwhatsup.com</a>
<a href="http://pinstand.com/" target="_blank">http://pinstand.com</a>
- <a href="http://punkcast.com/" target="_blank">http://punkcast.com</a>
VP<br>
(Admin) - ISOC-NY - <a href="http://isoc-ny.org/" target="_blank">http://isoc-ny.org</a><br>
--------------------------------------------------------------<br>
-<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
discuss mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:discuss@1net.org" target="_blank">discuss@1net.org</a><br>
<a href="http://1net-mail.1net.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss" target="_blank">http://1net-mail.1net.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss</a><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
discuss mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:discuss@1net.org" target="_blank">discuss@1net.org</a><br>
<a href="http://1net-mail.1net.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss" target="_blank">http://1net-mail.1net.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss</a><br>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
discuss mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:discuss@1net.org" target="_blank">discuss@1net.org</a><br>
<a href="http://1net-mail.1net.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss" target="_blank">http://1net-mail.1net.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss</a><br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
discuss mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:discuss@1net.org" target="_blank">discuss@1net.org</a><br>
<a href="http://1net-mail.1net.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss" target="_blank">http://1net-mail.1net.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss</a></div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
discuss mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:discuss@1net.org" target="_blank">discuss@1net.org</a><br>
<a href="http://1net-mail.1net.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss" target="_blank">http://1net-mail.1net.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss</a><br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<br clear="all">
<br>
-- <br>
------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<font color="#888888">
<blockquote style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex;font-family:garamond,serif">
<i><span style="color:rgb(0,102,0)">Seun
Ojedeji,<br style="color:rgb(0,102,0)">
</span><span style="color:rgb(0,102,0)">Federal
University Oye-Ekiti<br style="color:rgb(0,102,0)">
</span><span style="color:rgb(0,102,0)">web:
</span><a href="http://www.fuoye.edu.ng/" target="_blank">http://www.fuoye.edu.ng</a><br>
<span style="color:rgb(0,102,0)"></span><span style="color:rgb(0,102,0)">Mobile: <a value="+2348035233535">+2348035233535</a></span><span style="color:rgb(0,102,0)"></span><br>
</i><i><span style="color:rgb(0,102,0)">alt
email:<a href="http://goog_1872880453/" target="_blank"> </a><a href="mailto:seun.ojedeji@fuoye.edu.ng" target="_blank">seun.ojedeji@fuoye.edu.ng</a></span></i><br>
</blockquote>
</font><br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br>
discuss mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:discuss@1net.org" target="_blank">discuss@1net.org</a><br>
<a href="http://1net-mail.1net.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss" target="_blank">http://1net-mail.1net.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss</a></blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset></fieldset>
<br>
<pre>_______________________________________________
discuss mailing list
<a href="mailto:discuss@1net.org" target="_blank">discuss@1net.org</a>
<a href="http://1net-mail.1net.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss" target="_blank">http://1net-mail.1net.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss</a></pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
discuss mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:discuss@1net.org">discuss@1net.org</a><br>
<a href="http://1net-mail.1net.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss" target="_blank">http://1net-mail.1net.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss</a><br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -<br>
Dr. Alejandro Pisanty<br>Facultad de Qu�mica UNAM<br>Av. Universidad 3000, 04510 Mexico DF Mexico<br>+52-1-5541444475 FROM ABROAD<br>+525541444475 DESDE M�XICO SMS +525541444475<br>Blog: <a href="http://pisanty.blogspot.com" target="_blank">http://pisanty.blogspot.com</a><br>
LinkedIn: <a href="http://www.linkedin.com/in/pisanty" target="_blank">http://www.linkedin.com/in/pisanty</a><br>Unete al grupo UNAM en LinkedIn, <a href="http://www.linkedin.com/e/gis/22285/4A106C0C8614" target="_blank">http://www.linkedin.com/e/gis/22285/4A106C0C8614</a><br>
Twitter: <a href="http://twitter.com/apisanty" target="_blank">http://twitter.com/apisanty</a><br>---->> Unete a ISOC Mexico, <a href="http://www.isoc.org" target="_blank">http://www.isoc.org</a><br>. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
</div>