<div dir="ltr">Parminder,<div><br></div><div>McTim has clarified the reading of my statement. Yours is off-base in so many ways that it isn't even wrong (quote from Wolfgang Pauli, you know it's a favorite.)</div><div>
<br></div><div>On your question of private financing of governmental committees: I wish it were formulated in a way relevant to the discussions here, which are about sources of funding for one of many possible multstakeholder organizations - not government. Let's keep discussions, even if indirectly, tethered to the design of an NTIA-function substitute. </div>
<div><br></div><div>Yours,</div><div><br></div><div>Alejandro Pisanty</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Mar 23, 2014 at 3:26 AM, parminder <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net" target="_blank">parminder@itforchange.net</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<font face="Verdana">Alejandro<br>
<br>
It is difficult for me to discuss this issue with you when you so
seamlessly conflate 'public' with undemocratic governments. This
to me betrays a complete lack of belief in politics and democracy
- for anything that governs will be governments, and they are bad
as per you. The only alternative being that market logic governs
all aspects of social relationships - including what was
traditionally outside market framework, for instance, governance.
The ideology of extension of market logic to more or less all
social affairs goes by the name of neoliberalism.<br>
<br>
In addition, your reading of what civil society does or stands for
is quite erroneous. Dont be guided with some elements of IG civil
society that seems rather comfortable in company of big business.
BTW the following wikipedia of World Social Forum may explicate
what I am trying to say<br>
<br>
"</font><font face="Verdana">Some<sup style="white-space:nowrap">[<i><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Avoid_weasel_words" title="Wikipedia:Avoid weasel words" target="_blank"><span title="The material near this tag possibly uses too-vague
attribution or weasel words. (June 2012)">who?</span></a></i>]</sup>
consider the World Social Forum to be a physical manifestation of
global <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_society" title="Civil society" target="_blank">civil society</a>, as it brings together <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non_governmental_organizations" title="Non governmental organizations" target="_blank">non
governmental organizations</a>, advocacy campaigns as well as
formal and informal <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_movements" title="Social movements" target="_blank">social movements</a>
seeking international <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solidarity" title="Solidarity" target="_blank">solidarity</a>. The World Social Forum
prefers to define itself as "an opened space – plural, diverse,
non-governmental and non-partisan – that stimulates the
decentralized debate, reflection, proposals building, experiences
exchange and alliances among movements and organizations engaged
in concrete actions towards a more solidarity, democratic and fair
world....a permanent space and process to build alternatives to <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism" title="Neoliberalism" target="_blank">neoliberalism</a>."<sup><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Social_Forum#cite_note-1" target="_blank"><span>[</span>1<span>]</span></a></sup>
"<br>
<br>
See the part on building alternatives to neoliberalism, which in
respect to governance refers to corporate dominance over
governance processes. Believe me, these guys believe thoroughly in
democratic governance and governments. Even for undemocratic
governments they advocate making them democratic and inculcate
participatory democracy. I havent heard them ever speak of
multistakeholderism, especially IG style. <br>
<br>
Still, to continue an effort for a dialogue, I can try and ask you
a specific question to clarify what exactly is at the heart of the</font><font face="Verdana"> discussion</font><font face="Verdana"> on public
financing of governance functions .<br>
<br>
Would you accept it if Mexican governmental committees dealing
with key policy functions are financed by corporations? <br>
<br>
Following from your answer to this question we can further discuss
the public financing issue. <br>
<br>
Regards<br>
parminder <br>
<br>
</font>
<div>On Sunday 23 March 2014 12:52 PM,
Alejandro Pisanty wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Parminder,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>this statement puts in a nutshell what never ceases to
amaze me: civil society has gained the most among all sectors
from the multistakeholder component of governance, be it
Internet, finance, or the environment. We from civil society
have broken silos and gained a global voice and unparallelled
global influence, often paired with influence inside our
countries.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Yet the position you present reverts power to governments
only - e.g. through the demand of public funding and the
exclusion of private funding; the same governments most civil
society is at odds with (admittedly in very different ways and
levels.) </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I continue to find it incredibly paradoxal to have civil
society leading the effort to braid the rope with which
governments would gladly hang us.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Another perplexing element of this discourse is calling the
effective, open, evolvable, broadly participatory and open
multistakeholder processes undemocratic and the multilateral
and governmental "democratic", when maybe two thirds of the
world population do not consider their condition democratic. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The remedy to the thick suspicionism of yours and
colleagues - after stating lack of knowledge of the
organizations and matters beign spoken of - is not doing away
with the multistakeholder component in favor of the
governmental or multilateral, but optimizing the combined
contributions they can make. ICANN-as-a-laboratory provides a
lot of learning in this respect, wasted by not being studied
enough. And the whole framework is vital for the NTIA
functional substitution problem to hand, which these
discussions have long drifted away from.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Alejandro Pisanty</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Mar 23, 2014 at 12:59 AM,
parminder <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net" target="_blank">parminder@itforchange.net</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"> <font face="Verdana">This
is what IETF's own RFC 3869 says<br>
</font><br>
<pre>"The principal thesis of this document is that if commercial funding is the main source of funding for future Internet research, the future of the Internet infrastructure could be in trouble.
In addition to issues about which projects are funded, the funding source can also affect the content of the research, for example, towards or against the development of open standards, or taking
varying degrees of care about the effect of the developed protocols on the other traffic on the Internet."
</pre>
<font face="Verdana"><br>
It is important to recognise that research is not a
monopoly function, but governance definitionally is. So,
if commercial funding can distort Internet research, it
is but obviously that it has to be an absolute no no for
governance functions (standards making for something as
socially important today as the Internet, in absence of
any further neutral public oversight constitutes a
governance function). <br>
<br>
parminder <br>
<br>
</font>
<div>On Sunday 23 March 2014 07:04 AM, Stephen Farrell
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Michael,
On 03/23/2014 01:23 AM, michael gurstein wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>I personally have no idea whether what you folks and your compadres
do/come up with is as pure as todays snowfall up on Grouse
Mountain--or not. But the absence of a recognition of what is
expected of you in terms of (at least formal) accountability and
transparency and what those expectations imply is, as I said to
John, I think a rather significant problem.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre>Actually you said you didn't know how the IETF works.
And I said that the sponsorship stuff is public. And
all the mailing list traffic is public and open to all.
I really think you're in the arena of FUD in terms of
how your concern absolutely does not apply in the IETF
context.
But yet again - if you or someone is concerned go look
at the facts in the public record and then come back.
I am entirely sure that if something interesting were
found there the IETF would discuss it to death in the
same manner we do with almost everything. But I'm also
pretty confident that such an examination of the IETF
if done fairly would actually not show up such a problem.
So the situation is that you don't know how the IETF works.
And the IETF does (I claim, knowing something about it, but
anyone can verify) act transparently with accountability.
The problem it seems to me is with the first sentence in
this paragraph.
S.
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</blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -<br> Dr. Alejandro Pisanty<br>Facultad de Qu�mica UNAM<br>Av. Universidad 3000, 04510 Mexico DF Mexico<br>
+52-1-5541444475 FROM ABROAD<br>+525541444475 DESDE M�XICO SMS +525541444475<br>Blog: <a href="http://pisanty.blogspot.com" target="_blank">http://pisanty.blogspot.com</a><br>LinkedIn: <a href="http://www.linkedin.com/in/pisanty" target="_blank">http://www.linkedin.com/in/pisanty</a><br>
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