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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoPlainText>McTim,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>-----Original Message-----<br>From: discuss-bounces@1net.org [mailto:discuss-bounces@1net.org] On Behalf Of McTim<br>Sent: Friday, March 28, 2014 10:50 AM<br>To: nathalie coupet<br>Cc: 1 Net List<br>Subject: Re: [discuss] What is MSism?</p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>Hi Nathalie,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>As Andrew explained there are different versions of MSism for different fora.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>Some are absolutely multi-equal (everyone on an absolutely equal<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>footing) some are not at all multi-equal.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span style='color:black'>[MG>] So who gets to choose which version is to be used in which context and what gives those who are doing this selection their authority to make those choices.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>If policy development processes were predictable, then there would be little point to use the process at all.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span style='color:black'>[MG>] Surely you mean "If (the <u>outcome</u> of) policy development processes were predictable, then there would be little point to use the process at all." The absence of predictable policy development <u>processes</u> opens those processes up to enormous abuse and delegitimizes those processes even in the areas where it has proven to be effective.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span style='color:black'>M<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>rgds,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>McTim<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>On Fri, Mar 28, 2014 at 12:28 PM, nathalie coupet <<a href="mailto:nathaliecoupet@yahoo.com"><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>nathaliecoupet@yahoo.com</span></a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> Hello Andrew and George,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> With MS-ism, there seems to be an increased awareness that <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> stakeholders are not on an equal footing, that decisions taken <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> according to MS processes are not predictable and this clashes with <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> the promise of empowerment for all that MS seems to have made. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> Discouragement, disillusion and frustration will certainly follow.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> Nathalie<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> ________________________________<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> From: Andrew Sullivan <<a href="mailto:ajs@anvilwalrusden.com"><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>ajs@anvilwalrusden.com</span></a>><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> To: <a href="mailto:discuss@1net.org"><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>discuss@1net.org</span></a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> Sent: Friday, March 28, 2014 10:02 AM<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> Subject: Re: [discuss] What is MSism?<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> On Fri, Mar 28, 2014 at 08:07:38AM -0400, McTim wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>>> It is clear that many of us (most of us I am guessing) on 1Net prefer <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>>> direct democracy:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> There is something faintly circular in the reasoning there. I'm not <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> sure it matters what most on this list prefer, because I don't think <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> that this list was set up on the principles of voting or democracy.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> Certainly, if it was, it's news to me.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> Importantly, for anything impinging on the functioning of the <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> Internet, I am not in favour of direct democracy. If the discussions <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> on this list have demonstrated anything, it is that there is a vast <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> number of people who have such deep technical confusion about how the <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> Internet actually works as to be disqualified from having an opinion <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> on what should be done with it. People are of course entitled to <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> their own opinions, but I don't think that all opinions on technical <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> matters of fact ought to have equal standing. Hence Dave Clark's <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> famous adage about the IETF: "We reject: kings, presidents and voting.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> We believe in: rough consensus and running code."<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>>> Given that 1Net is all about MSism:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> I have been a little frustrated by these threads about what "MSism"<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> is, and I have a sneaking suspicion that this is because it isn't one <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> thing. For instance, many people think ICANN, the IETF, and the RIRs <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> are multistakholder organizations. To the extent that is true, it's <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> revealing, because they work in very different ways. Most of the RIRs <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> have some notion of membership, usually relating to whether one holds <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> allocations from the region. Moreover, the RIRs are already <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> implicitly tied to geography (itself a problematic notion on the <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> Internet). ICANN has constituencies, and one nominally works through <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> those consituencies, though of course public comment is widely <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> welcome. The IETF does not have formal consituencies or membership, <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> and anyone is welcome to comment on anything on the mailing list, but <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> one tends to be ignored if one's arguments don't get support or at <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> least acknowledgement from others.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> What seems to me to be a common thread among these things, however, is <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> that the mechanisms are different adaptations to trying to get as many <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> relevant and informed opinions into the "tussle" about tricky <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> problems. In this sense, the precise definition is less important, I <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> think, than the style of working. So,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>>> Those MS processes aren't about power, but largely about which ideas <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>>> are better than others [...].<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> I think this is where we should concentrate.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> Best regards,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> A<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> --<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> Andrew Sullivan<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <a href="mailto:ajs@anvilwalrusden.com"><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>ajs@anvilwalrusden.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> _______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> discuss mailing list<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <a href="mailto:discuss@1net.org"><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>discuss@1net.org</span></a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <a href="http://1net-mail.1net.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss"><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>http://1net-mail.1net.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss</span></a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> _______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> discuss mailing list<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <a href="mailto:discuss@1net.org"><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>discuss@1net.org</span></a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <a href="http://1net-mail.1net.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss"><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>http://1net-mail.1net.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss</span></a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>discuss mailing list<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><a href="mailto:discuss@1net.org"><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>discuss@1net.org</span></a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><a href="http://1net-mail.1net.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss"><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>http://1net-mail.1net.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss</span></a><o:p></o:p></p></div></body></html>