<div dir="ltr">Michael,<div><br></div><div>since you have time for this - can you provide a template with your concerns, with some identification of causal connections?</div><div><br></div><div>Alejandro Pisanty</div></div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 12:09 PM, michael gurstein <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com" target="_blank">gurstein@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="white" lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple"><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">It might be interesting and useful to know (as an extension of the thought experiment for example) which of the issues listed below various colleagues thought might be applicable to IETF type multistakeholder decision making processes and which might not (recognizing that multistakeholder consultation processes will have value in a much broader range of issue areas).<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">M<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext"> <a href="mailto:discuss-bounces@1net.org" target="_blank">discuss-bounces@1net.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:discuss-bounces@1net.org" target="_blank">discuss-bounces@1net.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>parminder<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, April 02, 2014 8:00 AM<br><b>To:</b> Alejandro Pisanty<br><b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:discuss@1net.org" target="_blank">discuss@1net.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [discuss] A thought experiment - what follows the 'IANA transition?'<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div></div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal">On Wednesday 19 March 2014 06:25 AM, Alejandro Pisanty wrote:<u></u><u></u></p></div><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div><p class="MsoNormal">Parminder, <u></u><u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">the logical next step is to ask you to resend your message complete with what seems to be an involuntarily ommitted part, the list of issues you consider should be dealt with.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Alejandro Pisanty<u></u><u></u></p></div></div></blockquote><p class="MsoNormal"><br>Alejandro<br><br>Sorry, I had missed this email of a few weeks back... My organisation did submit a list of global Internet related public policy issues that need resolution in response to the questionnaire of Working Group on Enhanced Cooperation. Our full response is <a href="http://www.itforchange.net/Response_to_the_questionnaire_issued_by_CSTD_Working_Group_on_Enhanced_Cooperation_html" target="_blank">here </a><br>
<br>The response to question 4 which is the one relevant to your email is cut pasted below.......<br><br>(begins)<u></u><u></u></p><p style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><b>4. What are the relevant international public policy issues pertaining to the Internet? </b><u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"> <u></u><u></u></p><p>The report of the Working Group on Internet Governance<a name="14523a192df1459b_sdfootnote1anc"></a><a href="http://www.itforchange.net/Response_to_the_questionnaire_issued_by_CSTD_Working_Group_on_Enhanced_Cooperation_html#sdfootnote1sym" target="_blank"><sup>1</sup></a> (WGIG), set up during the WSIS process, identified many international public policy issues pertaining to the Internet. This output of the Working Group was recognized by the Tunis Agenda, which reasserts most of these issues. Some more issues were identified in the background report<a name="14523a192df1459b_sdfootnote2anc"></a><a href="http://www.itforchange.net/Response_to_the_questionnaire_issued_by_CSTD_Working_Group_on_Enhanced_Cooperation_html#sdfootnote2sym" target="_blank"><sup>2</sup></a> to the WGIG report. More recently, the ITU Council Resolution 1305 (2009), in its Annex 1, recognized some public policy issues pertaining to the Internet, especially those with rather significant technical aspects.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>It is difficult to have a closed list of international public policy issues pertaining to the Internet, since new ones keep cropping up, with amazing rapidity. An indicative, non-exhaustive, list of public policy issues pertaining to the Internet is given below. It is difficult at this stage to do such a listing in any strict order of priority. We start with issues listed in the WGIG report and its background report, move to the listing made by the ITU, and then add some more emergent issues.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>Issues listed in the WGIG report (see the report for elaboration of each issue)<u></u><u></u></p><p style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><u></u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span>�<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><u></u>Administration of the root zone files and system<u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><u></u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span>�<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><u></u>Interconnection costs (especially global interconnection)<u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><u></u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span>�<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><u></u>Internet stability, security and cybercrime<u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><u></u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span>�<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><u></u>Spam<u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><u></u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span>�<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><u></u>Allocation of domain names<u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><u></u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span>�<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><u></u>IP addressing<u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><u></u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span>�<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><u></u>Intellectual property rights (IPR)<u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><u></u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span>�<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><u></u>Freedom of Expression<u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><u></u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span>�<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><u></u>Data protection and privacy rights<u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><u></u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span>�<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><u></u>Consumer rights<u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><u></u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span>�<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><u></u>Multilingualism<u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><u></u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span>�<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><u></u>Convergence and next generation networks<u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><u></u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span>�<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><u></u>trade and e-commerce<u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:.55pt"><br>Some additional public policy issues mentioned in the background report to the WGIG report (elaborated in the report)<u></u><u></u></p><p style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<u></u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span>�<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><u></u>Applicable jurisdiction, cross border coordination<u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><u></u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span>�<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><u></u>Internet service providers (ISPs) and third party liabilities<u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><u></u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span>�<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><u></u>National policies and regulations (harmonization of)<u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><u></u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span>�<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><u></u>Competition policy, liberalization, privatization and regulations<u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><u></u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span>�<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><u></u>Affordable and universal access<u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><u></u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span>�<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><u></u>Cultural diversity<u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><u></u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span>�<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><u></u>technical standards, and technology choices<u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"> <u></u><u></u></p><p style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt">Public policy issues recognized in the ITU Resolution 1305, with regard to “scope of work of ITU on international Internet-related public policy matters”<u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"> <u></u><u></u></p><p style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><u></u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span>�<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><u></u>Multilingualization of the Internet including Internationalized (multilingual) Domain Names<u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><u></u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span>�<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><u></u>International Internet Connectivity<u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><u></u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span>�<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><u></u>International public policy issues pertaining to the Internet and the management of Internet resources, including domain names and addresses<u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><u></u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span>�<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><u></u>The security, safety, continuity, sustainability, and robustness of the Internet<u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><u></u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span>�<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><u></u>Combating cybercrime<u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><u></u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span>�<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><u></u>Dealing effectively with spam<u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><u></u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span>�<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><u></u>Issues pertaining to the use and misuse of the Internet<u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><u></u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span>�<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><u></u>Availability, affordability, reliability, and quality of service, especially in the developing world<u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><u></u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span>�<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><u></u>Contributing to capacity building for Internet governance in developing countries<u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><u></u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span>�<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><u></u>Developmental aspects of the Internet<u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><u></u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span>�<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><u></u>Respect for privacy and the protection of personal information and data<u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><u></u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span>�<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><u></u>Protecting children and young people from abuse and exploitation<u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="margin-left:2.25pt;text-indent:1.15pt"><u></u> <u></u></p><p style="margin-left:2.25pt;text-indent:1.15pt">There are many more, existing as well as emergent ,public policy issues pertaining to the Internet, like;<u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="margin-left:2.25pt;text-indent:1.15pt"><u></u> <u></u></p><p style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><u></u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span>�<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><u></u>Cloud computing (global issues involved)<u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><u></u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span>�<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><u></u>Cross border Internet flows<u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><u></u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span>�<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><u></u>Tax allocation among different jurisdictions with regard to global e-commerce<u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><u></u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span>�<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><u></u>Economics of personal data (who owns, who makes money from, and so on)<u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><u></u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span>�<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><u></u>Net neutrality (that all data is given equal priority on networks)<u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><u></u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span>�<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><u></u>Search neutrality (that global search engines give neutral results)<u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><u></u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span>�<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><u></u>Media convergence - Internet and traditional media (Internet companies versus newspapers, radio, cable and TV, book publishing industry etc)<u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><u></u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span>�<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><u></u>Regulation of global Internet businesses (in terms of adherence to competition policies, consumer rights, law enforcement etc)<u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><u></u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span>�<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><u></u>Internet intermediary companies as private agents for extra-territorial law enforcement (problems with)<u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><u></u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span>�<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><u></u>Access to knowledge and free information flows, deepening the public domain on the Internet<u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><u></u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span>�<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><u></u>Accessibility policies for the disabled<u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><u></u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span>�<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><u></u>Development of, and protection to, local content, local application, local e-services, and local/ domestic Internet businesses<u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><u></u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span>�<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><u></u>Protection of vulnerable sections, like children, women, traditional communities etc<u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><u></u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span>�<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><u></u>Internet and health systems, education systems, governance systems and so on<b>.</b><u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><u></u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span>�<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><u></u>Many many more... this being an unending and ever-evolving list, such is the transformational influence of the Internet on our social systems<b>.</b><u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"> <br>(ends)<u></u><u></u></p><p style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt">Thanks<u></u><u></u></p><p style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt">parminder <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br><br> <br><br><br><br><br><br><u></u><u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><u></u> <u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal">On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 4:58 AM, parminder <<a href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net" target="_blank">parminder@itforchange.net</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Agree with George,<br><br>There is a serious need for this thought experiment. <br><br>Lets devote at least half of our consciousness to this thought experiment - take it that ICANN side problems are all solved.<br>
<br>What other things, perhaps more important than 'ICANN issues' is NetMundial supposed to address. <br><br>I do not agree with George or Nick that non 'ICANN side issues' are not Internet governance issues. But lets discuss different positions on these issues in any case..<br>
<br>parminder </span><u></u><u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal">On Monday 17 March 2014 10:42 PM, George Sadowsky wrote:<u></u><u></u></p></div><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><p class="MsoNormal">
All, <u></u><u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">I would like to focus on a broader issue raised by the interesting discussion below. It has been touched on before, but I think it’s useful to go somewhat further.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">I see the issue as what is the appropriate domain of 'Internet governance' concerns. And that leads immediately to what we think the domain of concern of “Internet governance’ is, i.e. how we define it.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><b>I’d like to propose a thought experiment.</b> Suppose that by 30 September 2015, somehow “we” have created an appropriate accountability mechanism to replace NTIA’s current responsibilities. Further, suppose that (1) NTIA accepted it and proceeded to make the transfer to the new mechanism, and (2) there was very broad general agreement across multiple stakeholder groups globally that this was a transition that was worth supporting.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><b>What, then, would we discuss next?</b><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">
<b>On the one hand</b>, some of us argue that Internet governance is really the appropriate construction of Internet administration and coordination mechanisms, with their appropriate oversight, and that issues of content and behavior need to be discussed in more general contexts. Nick Ashton-Hart argues this persuasively. As an example, I would find it unproductive to discuss surveillance in the Internet unless it were within a more general context of surveillance policy. In that context, I see the Internet as another tool, such as using hidden cameras and microphones, tapping voice phone lines and intercepting postal mail. <u></u><u></u></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><b>On the other hand</b>, it’s clear that the introduction of the Internet has introduced both qualitative and quantitative changes in many areas of life and of human behavior, and that mechanisms dealing with them have not caught up to dealing with the Internet’s disruptive influence. Such problems often have (at least) two aspects, one technical and the other societal. I would not characterize these as Internet governance problems, but rather problems with respect to general governance caused or exacerbated by the Introduction of the Internet.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">So back to the thought experiment. If we really do solve the accountability and administrative issues related to ICANN and IANA in a manner that is widely accepted (admittedly a stretch, but it works for a thought experiment), then that is off the agenda. What’s next on the “Internet governance” agenda, and why? Do the venues for those discussions change, or not? Does the label by which we refer o those discussions change, or not? What is your “to do” list for Internet governance after an IANA final solution: <u></u><u></u></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">1. ….<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">2. ….<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">3. ….<u></u><u></u></p></div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal">4. ….<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">….<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Opinions welcome.<u></u><u></u></p></div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Finally, if you believe that there is nothing left after an IANA final solution, then it might be useful to suggest some of the specify issues that you exclude, and suggest suggest specific venues and processes that that represent the correct way forward to address those problems.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">This is really the issue of what Internet governance is, and is not. The WGIG definition had enough creative generality to navigate a process through the political environment of WSIS, but now we are addressing more specific issues. We lack descriptive terms that have enough specificity for us to be able to even discuss them without stumbling over definitional differences. That kind of stumbling is not a good use of resources. If we do not share what a word or a phrase means, I don’t see how we can discuss it sensibly. Responses to the proposed thought experiment might yield some clarity on this point.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">My sense is that the terms ‘Internet coordination’ and ‘Internet administration’ are unused terms that could be used to clarify discussions, but for some reason they have not been adopted by many others. Using more precise and shared terms to discuss the issues within the different strata of Vint’s diagram, sent in an earlier e-mail, would IMO be very helpful in making progress in these discussions. <u></u><u></u></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Let’s concentrate on recognizing, defining and identifying problems — it’s more important and, at least for me, more satisfying than semantic arguments.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">George<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<u></u><u></u></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">On Mar 17, 2014, at 5:22 AM, Nick Ashton-Hart <<a href="mailto:nashton@ccianet.org" target="_blank">nashton@ccianet.org</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div><p class="MsoNormal"><br><br><u></u><u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Dear Seun, inline responses<u></u><u></u></p><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">On 17 Mar 2014, at 10:11, Seun Ojedeji <<a href="mailto:seun.ojedeji@gmail.com" target="_blank">seun.ojedeji@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div><p class="MsoNormal"><br><br><u></u><u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal">Hello Nick,<u></u><u></u></p><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 9:43 AM, Nick Ashton-Hart <<a href="mailto:nashton@ccianet.org" target="_blank">nashton@ccianet.org</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I disagree. <u></u><u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">The international community does need a way to discuss surveillance - but Internet governance is not that venue, for the simple reason that the surveillance issue is about surveillance and not the Internet. <u></u><u></u></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">The issue of mass surveillance is really asking the question of how do countries treat non-nationals in their national security activities. The fact that the Internet is used as a tool for surveillance is really irrelevant to the question, just as the Internet is used for distribution of illegal material like those related to child exploitation but that is primarily an enforcement of laws issue, not an Internet issue.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p><blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in"><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">IG does not need to be about everything where there is an Internet dimension - or no solution to any problem can be found.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">However: the political demands for action over surveillance are impacting the Internet as we all know - so we do have a vested interest in ensuring that the core issue of mass surveillance is addressed, just not primarily by us, and not in IG.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div></div></blockquote><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Just to get the flow right, when you say "us" whom do you refer? and when you say mass surveillance is not an IG issue then what issue is it? My expectation is that the IG platform will provide an avenue to discuss the issue and then propose solutions which countries will then turn to legal content applicable to them. If the issues are not discussed then it will be difficult to know what they are and address them. Bringing then to IG fora will help give it a voice that could hopefully get to the listening hears of government and relevant authorities. <u></u><u></u></p>
</div></div></div></div></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">"Us" meaning the IG community. As to what issue it is, it is, as I described, an issue of surveillance, not the Internet. So, the human rights dimensions are currently being actively addressed in the Human Rights Council and related processes. The exchange of data for criminal and national security purposes are governed by MLATs (Mutual Legal Assistance Treaties) - <a href="http://access.org/" target="_blank">Access.org</a> has an excellent website devoted to MLAT reform at <a href="http://www.mlat.info/" target="_blank">www.mlat.info</a>.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Bringing this issue to IG fora will harmfully conflate issues which have nothing to do with IG with IG issues, and contaminate (further) Internet governance with a great deal of politicisation. I would hope that we all don't want to see the security, stability, and universality of the Internet further polluted with politics of national security and safety.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div><p class="MsoNormal"><br><br><u></u><u></u></p><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">As per the NetMundial, i agree with Avri that from recent happenings, ICANN-IANA related issues may carry the majority of the agenda which ofcourse was not the only reason why the event was conjured in the first place. However since the ICANN-IANA discussion will start from ICANN49 i think some foundational progress will have been made to further lighten up the NetMundial agenda to accommodate the other half of the goal which is largely related to mass surveillance.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div></div></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">I think if NetMundial is consumed with ICANN issues that will be both a mistake and a huge missed opportunities. Finding a way to agree on principles, and what is, and is not, appropriate for IG policy to address would be a significant added value; there is also no other global forum designed to produce outcomes along these lines. The discussion of internationalizing ICANN has a home for discussions: ICANN.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div><p class="MsoNormal"><br><br><u></u><u></u></p><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">I don't think anyone here is disagreeing with recent development on ICANN-IANA, as it is good news. However we should also not let that overwhelm the other present concerns. Lets remember that the ICANN-IANA processes is to prevent the future "what-IFs" while mass surveillance on the other hand is currently happening and we should not neglect that.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div></div></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">"we" cannot solve national security issues. All we can do is insist that the various aspects of national security use of data and the rules by which non-nationals are treated are dealt with - in the fora where they are already under discussion.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div><p class="MsoNormal"><br><br><u></u><u></u></p><div><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Regards<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Cheers!<u></u><u></u></p></div><blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><u></u> <u></u></p><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">On 17 Mar 2014, at 06:16, parminder <<a href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net" target="_blank">parminder@itforchange.net</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div><p class="MsoNormal"><br><br><u></u><u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><br>On Sunday 16 March 2014 09:51 PM, Victor Ndonnang wrote:<br><br><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">+1 Adiel.<br>Surveillance and intelligence agencies was there before the Internet. Even<br>
if the Internet has a role in the mass surveillance...USG/NTIA intent to<br>transfer IANA and root zone management related to the global independent<br>Multistakeholder entity is not a response to the mass surveillance issue.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>Agree, developments on the ICANN oversight issue do not constitute any real response to mass surveillance problem. And since NetMundial came out of a series of events directly connected to the mass surveillance problem, and which is the main reason the 'global community' invested into it, it is only fair to the people across the world that we have<br>
<br>1. discussions on this issues, and others related to larger international public policy issues pertaining to the Internet , and<br>2. come up with proposals regarding these issues.<br><br>I have seen almost nil work on this list in this regard. ICANN oversight issue should not be allowed to overshadow these much more important and pressing global public policy issues. I fear this is what is happening. A good reason of course is structural about what 1Net is.<br>
<br>parminder<br><br><br><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">May be that Global Multistakeholder entity will be the IETF or I... to help<br>strengthen security, privacy and trust on the Internet.<br>The Internet Governance is mainly a technical thing, let's leave the<br>
technical community takes care of it with the full participation and inputs<br>of others stakeholders.<br>Regards,<br>Victor.<br><br><br><br><br>-----Message d'origine-----<br>De : <a href="mailto:discuss-bounces@1net.org" target="_blank">discuss-bounces@1net.org</a> [<a href="mailto:discuss-bounces@1net.org" target="_blank">mailto:discuss-bounces@1net.org</a>] De la part<br>
de Adiel Akplogan<br>Envoy� : Sunday, March 16, 2014 8:48 AM<br>� : Seun Ojedeji<br>Cc : 1 Net List; Civil Society Internet Governance Caucus - IGC<br>Objet : Re: [discuss] [governance] NTIA statement<br><br>I disagree as well. In this discussion it is very important to dissociate<br>
the USG/NTIA by role in the performance of IANA function by ICANN and the<br>issue related to mass surveillance. The two are not technically linked and<br>should be addressed separately.<br><br>- a.<br><br>On Mar 16, 2014, at 11:03 AM, Seun Ojedeji <<a href="mailto:seun.ojedeji@gmail.com" target="_blank">seun.ojedeji@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
<br><br><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">Well I would not disagree that mass surveillance indeed continues.<br><br>Any NSA statement that says otherwise?<br><br>Cheers!<br>sent from Google nexus 4<br>kindly excuse brevity and typos.<br>
<br>On 15 Mar 2014 19:08, "Joly MacFie" <<a href="mailto:joly@punkcast.com" target="_blank">joly@punkcast.com</a>> wrote:<br>Disagree,<br><br>Different department.<br><br>j<br><br><br>On Sat, Mar 15, 2014 at 7:06 AM, Louis Pouzin (well) <<a href="mailto:pouzin@well.com" target="_blank">pouzin@well.com</a>><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">wrote:<br><br><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">Hi,<br><br>The IANA ballyhoo comes from the same factory as the "internet freedom"<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">smoke screen launched before WCIT. It's a spin diversion for the show.<br>
<br><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">Mass surveillance continues. What's new ?<br><br>Louis<br><br><br>____________________________________________________________<br>You received this message as a subscriber on the list:<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-family:"Garamond","serif";color:#006600">Seun Ojedeji,<br>Federal University Oye-Ekiti<br>web: </span></i><i><span style="font-family:"Garamond","serif";color:#888888"><a href="http://www.fuoye.edu.ng/" target="_blank">http://www.fuoye.edu.ng</a><br>
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