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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Evan,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Inline…<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> evanleibovitch@gmail.com [mailto:evanleibovitch@gmail.com] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Evan Leibovitch<br><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, May 03, 2014 10:48 AM<br><b>To:</b> Michael Gurstein<br><b>Cc:</b> 1Net List; Nick Ashton-Hart<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [discuss] [bestbits] Shoshanna Zuboff: Dark Google<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p>+1 Nick <o:p></o:p></p><p>Michael, the paper you sent (BTW, really bad form to copy the whole thing rather than providing a link, for far more reasons than mobile devices) strikes me as a backgrounder. <span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p><b><i><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>[MG>] List cultures vary… some require full articles, some require links… I simply forwarded an article from another list (predominantly techie BTW) as I received it…<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p><p><b><i><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></i></b></p><p>Its relevance *here* strikes me as peripheral unless you wish to argue that Google is not a legitimate stakeholder.<o:p></o:p></p><p><b><i><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>[MG>] The relevance is to put the overall issue of what Multistakeholderism means in its larger geo-political context. Refusing to recognize that there is such a context is a weakness not a strength IMHO and feeds directly into a passive acceptance of what might in fact be a significantly destructive status quo—as I believe the CEO of Springer was trying to point out.<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p><p><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p>If not that, then what is the action point you wish to raise *here* as result of the piece. "Fear Google" is in itself insufficient IMO, but I genuinely want to know how you would have this group react. <o:p></o:p></p><p><b><i><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>[MG>] I would genuinely like to see a critical discussion of MSism in its larger context and including its broader political and other significance. The notion of “democratic” multistakeholder processes was introduced in the NetMundial Outcome document and I would be very interested for example, to hear the reaction to this from some of those with a deep experience with MS processes in the technical spheres… Is a “democratic” MS process possible, what might it look like, what special supportive mechanisms/safeguards might it require and so on. These are significant and important questions which any serious discussion of MSism should include at this stage even in the absence of the quite profound (and disturbing critiques) from Zuboff and Dopfner.</span></i></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p>Netmundial, arguably a significant 1Net milestone, demonstrated that it is possible to include very large, very invasive and very fear-worthy actors in the process. <span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p><b><i><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>[MG>] Yes perhaps, but NetMundial as everyone I think agrees was a “pilot” where everyone was on their best behavior and where the stakes for most participants were quite low—hardly the case for what Zuboff and Dopfner are pointing to. Also, while “democratic MS processes” were a noted anticipated outcome of NM, they were most certainly not visible as an input to NM. So using NM as a model in the way you (and others) are attempting to do is somewhat beside the (larger) point.<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p><p>Furthermore, in a rough consensus model, no one player has a veto.<o:p></o:p></p><p><b><i><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>[MG>] Again the point of Zuboff and Dopfner is that a dominant player (in this case Google but it could also be the USG or the NSA or Amazon etc.) is quite likely to control a considerable portion of the resource which may be under discussion. So while the principle of “rough consensus” may be invoked, in practice the dominant player will most certainly retain a veto. In any MS discussion/process on the role of, for example “search” where Google sits at the table, to think that they don’t have some sort of veto power is to my mind naïve in the extreme.</span></i></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p>Are you suggesting that Google requires different treatment? <span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p><b><i><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>[MG>] No. But I am suggesting that dominant forces whether they are governmental or corporate do need to be recognized as having extraordinary power/influence and in discussing/assessing MSism to not recognize this is to respond to a hurricane as though it were a summer breeze.<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p><p><b><i><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Mike<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>On May 3, 2014 5:00 AM, "michael gurstein" <<a href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com">gurstein@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Nick,<br><br>I would have thought putting these discussions into an appropriate, current<br>and larger context would be a quite reasonable addition--although clearly<br>uncomfortable for some.<br><br>But yes, apologies to those following on mobiles.<br><br>M<br><br>-----Original Message-----<br>From: Nick Ashton-Hart [mailto:<a href="mailto:nashton@internet-ecosystem.org">nashton@internet-ecosystem.org</a>]<br>Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2014 9:37 AM<br>To: michael gurstein<br>Cc: <a href="mailto:discuss@1net.org">discuss@1net.org</a> List<br>Subject: Re: [bestbits] Shoshanna Zuboff: Dark Google<br><br>- all the double posting.<br><br>Michael, I'm a European, and in addition I actually live in Europe. What's<br>roiling Europe right now is the Ukraine crisis - not this stuff.<br><br>Could I ask - once again - that we try to keep /1net discussions focussed<br>how to collaborate on issues where there's a possibility of (1) all<br>communities actually seeing there is an issue, and (2) through dialogue<br>agreeing on some common points about that issue?<br><br>I think I'm on very safe ground in saying that this entire meme does not<br>meet either of those conditions.<br><br>Could I also ask that entire long articles from publications not be copied<br>wholesale into list correspondence? While I am not, some people are paying<br>for mobile access to this list, and this simply increases their costs and<br>downloading time for communications. A link should suffice.<br><br>On 3 May 2014, at 09:55, michael gurstein <<a href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com">gurstein@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br><br>> This discussion is currently roiling Europe and beyond.<br>><br>> The discussion and Zuboff's analysis has very significant implications for<br>the matters of Multistakeholder governance which are currently being<br>triumphantly trumpeted in these contexts and beyond. The issues that Zuboff<br>is pointing to with specific reference to Google and surveillance underlie<br>the drive to include companies like Google and others directly in decision<br>making through multistakeholder processes/Internet Governance.<br>><br>> It hardly takes a huge flight of imagination to recognize the signals<br>concerning the extreme danger that MSism represents in the context of<br>Zuboff's arguments i.e. giving Google (et al) effective veto power over and<br>a highly influential (and potentially unstoppable role in) decision making<br>in areas key to controlling what Zuboff calls "the rise of absolute power".<br>><br>> (And for the Multistakeholderists among us here is a critical response<br>> from a former senior employee of another Silicon Valley corporate<br>> giant--Yahoo<br>> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/benjaminbratton/posts/10152082644097966?strea" target="_blank">https://www.facebook.com/benjaminbratton/posts/10152082644097966?strea</a><br>> m_ref=10 )<br>><br>> M<br>><br>> -----Original Message-----<br>> From: liberationtech<br>> [mailto:<a href="mailto:liberationtech-bounces@lists.stanford.edu">liberationtech-bounces@lists.stanford.edu</a>] On Behalf Of Yosem<br>> Companys<br>> Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2014 4:41 PM<br>> To: Liberation Technologies<br>> Subject: [liberationtech] Shoshanna Zuboff: Dark Google<br>><br><br><Snip> the rest of a gigantically long reproduction of an article.<br><br><br><br><br>--<br>Regards,<br><br>Nick Ashton-Hart<br>Executive Director, Internet & Digital Ecosystem Alliance (IDEA)<br>Tel: <a href="tel:%2B41%20%2822%29%20534%2099%2045">+41 (22) 534 99 45</a><br>Fax: : <a href="tel:%2B41%20%2822%29%20594-85-44">+41 (22) 594-85-44</a><br>Mobile: <a href="tel:%2B41%2079%20595%205468">+41 79 595 5468</a><br>USA Tel: <a href="tel:%2B1%20%28202%29%20640-5430">+1 (202) 640-5430</a><br>email/IM (Jabber/GTalk): <a href="mailto:nashton@internet-ecosystem.org">nashton@internet-ecosystem.org</a> PGP Fingerprint:<br>BFD5 DF7 7 2E D5 8 636 92E7 735 7 07 03 7 727 9B0A 522 6<br>Skype: nashtonhart<br><a href="http://www.internet-ecosystem.org" target="_blank">www.internet-ecosystem.org</a><br><br><br><br>_______________________________________________<br>discuss mailing list<br><a href="mailto:discuss@1net.org">discuss@1net.org</a><br><a href="http://1net-mail.1net.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss" target="_blank">http://1net-mail.1net.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss</a><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></body></html>