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Thanks for this excellent post Anriette. Obviously, I agree
whole-heartedly. I am very glad you are going, and I wish you all
the luck in the world. You will likely need it.<br>
Best wishes.<br>
Stephanie Perrin<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 14-08-14 8:00 AM, Anriette
Esterhuysen wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:53ECA4FB.5010900@apc.org" type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=ISO-8859-1">
<font size="+1"><font size="+1">Dear all<br>
<br>
Writing this in my personal capacity. My organisation, the
Association for Progressive Communications, has not yet
finalised its reaction to this discussion.<br>
<br>
I have not been involved in the NETmundial initiative, but
have been aware of it since ICANN 50 in London. I have been
invited to the 28 August event.<br>
<br>
Aside from those concerns already stated on this list, which I
share, I want to add I am not convinced that this initiative,
based at the WEF, and adopting a 'get all the great leaders
into the room' approach is what is really needed to build on
the substantial achievements of the NETmundial.<br>
<br>
I have always been an admirer of initiative and risk taking in
the service of the 'greater good' and I don't want to condemn
the NETmundial initiative or its initiators. I do believe it
should be viewed critically however, as a lot is at stake.<br>
<br>
Getting process right is never easy, but it is important to
try hard to do so, particularly when building something that
is intended to be long term.<br>
<br>
The NETmundial process was not perfect, but it made a HUGE
effort to be inclusive and transparent. The degree to which it
succeeded contributed to its legitimacy and success. The
NETmundial Initiative needs to consider this very carefully.
Of course it makes sense to work with smaller groups of people
to get any initiative going, but in the internet world, and
probably in the world everywhere these days, not being
transparent about how these smaller groups are constituted and
how they operate is 1) a lost cause as leaking can be assumed,
2) not necessary and 3) probably somewhat foolish.<br>
<br>
But assuming that the NETmundial Initiative process will
become more transparent and inclusive in the next few weeks, I
still have a fundamental concern about its format and
location. I am not convinced that it is tactically what is
really needed to build on the substantial achievements of the
NETmundial, the IGF before it, and the many people who have
tried to make multi-stakeholder internet policy processes work
in the real world over the last decade.<br>
<br>
My reasons are (mostly) as follows:<br>
<br>
<b>1) Choice of 'location' in the context of power and
politics in multi-stakeholder internet governance</b><br>
<br>
Most of us consider the NETmundial a success and the
NETmundial statement a strong, positive document that avoids
the traps of 'cheap' consensus. <br>
<br>
By that I mean that the final statement reflects consensus,
disagreement, and issues that need follow-up and further
elaboration. That not all agreed on the pre-final draft (there
were some last minute disagreements about text related to
intermediary liability and surveillance) with the final
version reflecting these negotiations actually makes it an
even stronger document, in my view, even if some of the text I
would have liked to see in it was excluded. To me this
represents that the stakeholders involved in the development
of the text were able to work together, and disagree. The
disagreement was resolved in favour of the more power and
influential - not civil society of course. I don't mind this.
It reflects reality. And I know that civil society did also
gain hugely with most of our demands making it through. Over
time these power arrangements might change, and those of us
working for the public interested in these processes have to
keep on contesting, and negotiating. Multi-stakeholder
processes where this does not happen are not worth the time we
spend on them.<br>
<br>
Power and influence matters, and will continue to do so. In
choosing a site for taking the NETmundial forward attention
has to be given to ensuring that it is a platform where
dynamics related to power and influence among stakeholders in
IG is able to play themselves out on a relatively equal
playing field, with that playing field becoming more equal as
time goes on.<br>
<br>
WEF does not provide this. Yes, certain big name civil
society leaders attend WEF meetings. Others are present.
Developing country leaders also attend, and it is seen as a
powerful pro-business, pro US and Europe forum for reaching
business leaders, and facilitating networking among the
prominent and powerful (with some being both).<br>
<br>
But is it the right space to establish something sustained,
inclusive and bottom up that can gradually lead the way in
building the legitimacy and inclusiveness needed to
operationalise the NETmundial outcomes at global, regional,
and national levels? I don't think so.<br>
<br>
I say this not to disrespect the staff of the WEF or people
who participate in WEF forums, or of ICANN, or anyone else
involved in the NETmundial initiative. But first and foremost
as someone from a developing country who has experienced the
ups and downs and highs and lows of multistakeholder IG for a
long time and secondly as a member of civil society. To me WEF
simply does not feel like a space where developing country
people and civil society will ever have a equal power with
powerful "northern" governments and global business.<br>
<br>
<b>2) What do we really need to </b><b>operationalise and
consolidate the NETmundial outcomes? <br>
<br>
</b>Glamorous gatherings of the powerful and prominent in IG
(be they government, from the north and the south, tech
community, business or civil society) will help to keep
networking going, create the opportunity for
self-congratulation for those of us who were part of the
NETmundial in some way (and I had the privilege to make
submissions online, and to be involved in the co-chairing some
of the drafting on site in Sao Paulo).<br>
<br>
But is that what is really needed to integrate what the
NETmundial stands for (public interested, democratic
multistakeholder and human rights oriented internet
governance) into the day to day running of the internet in
ways that will be felt by existing and future users?<br>
<br>
I don't think so. <br>
<br>
I think that what is needed is building lasting (and they
have to be very strong because they will be attacked) bridges
between a process such as NETmundial, and its outcomes, and
institutions and people that make governance and regulatory
decisions on a day to day basis. I want to see, for example,
freedom of expression online enshrined in the contitutions of
very government of the world. I want governments (and where
relevant, businesses) to be held accountable for making sure
that all people everywhere can access the internet.<br>
<br>
This means engaging those that are not yet part of the
multi-stakeholder internet governance 'in-crowd'. It requires
working with national governments. Regional intergovernmental
bodies as well as international onces, including those in the
UN system. <br>
<br>
Will a NETmundial Initiative based at the WEF prevent the
rejection of multi-stakeholder processes (and of women's
rights for that matter) that was evident in the CSTD Working
Group on Enhanced Cooperation? Or efforts among ITU member
states to increase governmental oversight over internet
governance? Or tension between blocks of states with divides
between the developed and the developing world?<br>
<br>
I think that is the test it will need to pass with flying
colours if it were to make the gains that are needed, and that
are not already being made through processes such as the IGF,
even if only in part. And a good starting point would be to
identify how those governments that were at the NETmundial,
but whom did not support the final statement publicly (some
said publicly they did not support it, and others failed to
show support simply by staying silent). <br>
<br>
How do they feel about this WEF-based NETmundial initiative? I
see some of them are invited. I know of at least one, present
in Sao Paulo and invited to the NETmundial Initiative, who
does not support either.<br>
<br>
Apologies for ranting and raving somewhat. The point I am
trying to make is that for internet regulation across the
ecosystem to comply with the principles in the NETmundial
statement and get get the NETmundial roadmap used as a guide
we don't need more expensive global gatherings. We need
existing governance institutions and processes, including
those not yet on the multi-stakeholder bandwagon, to consider
and adopt NETmundial principles and integrate those into their
governance decisions and processes. And I am not convinced
that a WEF based forum constituted in the way the NETmundial
Initiative has been, is up to that task.<br>
<br>
<b>3) NETmundial </b><b>Initiative and the IGF and the
broader internet community</b><br>
<br>
The NETmundial outcome documents mentions the IGF repeatedly.
It recommends strengthening of the IGF, and asks the IGF to
take the discussion of complex IG issues forward. This
reflects both the inputs received prior to the Sao Paulo
meeting, as well as deliberations in Sao Paulo. It reflects
the will of those from ALL stakeholder groups who participated
in the NETmundial.<br>
<br>
I therefore find completely inappropriate that an initiative
which takes the name of the NETmundial, and which sets out to
take the NETmundial outcomes forward, does not have a closer
link to the IGF. <br>
<br>
In fact, at the very least it should have used the IGF as a
platform for presenting itself and getting feedback from the
broader community active in the internet governance ecosystem
which has been using the IGF as its primary discussion space.<br>
<br>
The IGF is an existing forum that is still linked to the UN
system, and through that, to those parts of the internet
governance ecosystem populated by governments. It is a bridge.
It needs to be stronger, and used more, but it exists and many
of us has put a lot of work into it over the last 8 years.<br>
<br>
Without much capacity and resources, the IGF continues year
after year, overwhelmed with a demand from the internet
community it cannot come close to meet (e.g. no of workshop
proposals that cannot be accommodated). Regional and national
IGFs have their own trajectory too.. ups and downs there too..
but overall becoming more inclusive. The IGF process has not
even begun to fulfill its potential. Particularly not at the
level of interacting with other institutions and capturing and
communicating the outcomes from IGF discussions effectively.<br>
<br>
1000s of people have been working in this IGF processes,
people who are trying to create change on the ground by
getting different stakeholder groups to listen to one another
and work towards a more inclusive and fair internet. People
who are trying to find constructive ways of challenging
practices (be they driven by governments or business) that,
for example. blocks affordable access, or free expression on
the internet. If you count all the IGFs around the world we
are talking about 10s of thousands of people. The lack of
respect shown to all these people and organisations by
NETmundial Initiative rings loud alarm bells in my ears. <br>
<br>
I might be overly sensitive. I will really happy if my
skepticism proves to be unfounded as I really do believe that
we need democratic multi-stakeholder governance of the
internet, and I believe that the NETmundial principles can
help us get there.<br>
<br>
I guess I am also somewhat saddened.. having invested so much
in th NETmundial, that this, the first initiative after April
2014 to take its name, is doing such a bad job at living up to
what the NETmundial process principles advocate.<br>
<br>
Anriette</font><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</font>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 14/08/2014 09:52, Chris Disspain
wrote:m<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:379B61FE-82C1-4F7B-BEE2-915DB0525218@auda.org.au"
type="cite"> <span style="font-family: 'Verdana'; font-size:
13px; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">I was told that the initiative is geared
towards bringing to attention of the industry leaders and
key government representatives Internet governance issues,
emphasising the need of preservation and promotion of the
multi-stakeholder model, as well as supporting the <span
tabindex="-1" id=":35x.6">IGF</span> as a
multi-stakeholder discussion platform by enlarging
participation in its work of those companies and
governments that haven't been involved until kn</div>
</blockquote>
<div>(l<br>
</div>
Yes, that is also my understanding. A particular emphasis was
made of supporting the IGF but, I guess, time will tell.<br>
<div>
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<p class="p1"><br>
</p>
<p class="p1"><br>
</p>
<p class="p2">Cheers, wha<br>
</p>
<p class="p3"> <br>
</p>
<p class="p2">Chri <br>
</p>
</div>
<br>
<div>
<div>On 14 Aug 2014, at 17:39 , Janis Karklins <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:karklinsj@gmail.com">karklinsj@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>As being one of invited to the launch event of the
<span tabindex="-1" id=":35x.1"
style="background:yellow"><span tabindex="-1"
id=":35x.1">WEF</span></span> initiative I would
like to share information that I possess.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>The World Economic Forum is an international
institution committed to improving the state of the
world through public-private cooperation (statement on
the website). <span tabindex="-1" id=":35x.2">WEF</span>
communities are various and more can be seen at <a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www/">http://www</a>.<span
tabindex="-1" id=":35x.3">weforum</span>.org/communities.
Organizationally the <span tabindex="-1" id=":35x.4">WEF</span>
is membership organization where big multinationals
from all over the world are widely represented. The <span
tabindex="-1" id=":35x.5">WEF</span> invites
representatives of governments, academia, civil
society, world of arts participate in their meetings
and engage with key industry leaders. This explains
why the invitees list is one you see.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I was told that the initiative is geared towards
bringing to attention of the industry leaders and key
government representatives Internet governance issues,
emphasising the need of preservation and promotion of
the multi-stakeholder model, as well as supporting the
<span tabindex="-1" id=":35x.6">IGF</span> as a
multi-stakeholder discussion platform by enlarging
participation in its work of those companies and
governments that haven't been involved until know.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I know that Alan Markus intends to present and
discuss the initiative at the 2014 <span
tabindex="-1" id=":35x.7">IGF</span> meeting and
there will be ample opportunity for the <span
tabindex="-1" id=":35x.8">IG</span> community to
clarify details.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I hope that this information is useful.</div>
<div><span tabindex="-1" id=":35x.9">JK</span></div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote"> On Thu, Aug 14, 2014 at 10:11
AM, Joana Varon <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:joana@varonferraz.com"
target="_blank">joana@varonferraz.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr"><b>Current status of IG debate:</b>
we need leaks to know what is going on! Pretty bad
for a start.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>@jordan carter: "<span
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13.33px">why
a noted business centred forum is the place to
launch an Internet governance initiative?" - a
question to be echoed indeed.</span></div>
<div><span
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13.33px"><br>
</span></div>
<div><font face="arial, sans-serif">It is a shame
after the whole attempt of NETMudial to
innovate in a meeting process, seeking some
transparency, openness and inclusion,
something like this comes up under the same
"brand". Hello Brazil?!</font></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>@jeremy and members of the so called "evil
cabal", if you go, you have an important role to
feed people with the most important asset:
information. I bet we will be always prompt for
feedback. <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>hoping for the best, though looking at... the
worst?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>regards</div>
<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>joana</div>
</font></span>
<div><br>
-- <br>
-- <br>
<br>
Joana Varon Ferraz<br>
@joana_varon<br>
PGP 0x016B8E73<br>
</div>
<div>
<div class="h5">
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Aug 14,
2014 at 1:30 AM, Seth Johnson <span
dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:seth.p.johnson@gmail.com"
target="_blank">seth.p.johnson@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid">More
that the IGF phase wasn't going to work.
IGF has always been in<br>
a tough spot, not so much fumbling the
ball -- as if that's anything<br>
other than an endemic feature of any
organization of a similar<br>
institutional nature -- but not
empowered and pining for standing.<br>
But Netmundial wasn't executed well in
that regard (they announced<br>
sponsorship of IGF, but they also
weren't quite able to make things<br>
stick), so they need to patch he
information society process up by a<br>
more blunt move that steps past IGF
rather than going through a<br>
process of engaging folks in issues via
IGF as per plan. I think<br>
they're figuring they'll be able to just
brazen it out.<br>
<div><br>
<br>
On Wed, Aug 13, 2014 at 10:39 PM,
Jeremy Malcolm <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jmalcolm@eff.org"
target="_blank">jmalcolm@eff.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
> I think it's more the case that
the IGF has so badly fumbled the ball
that<br>
> it falls to someone - anyone -
else to pick it up. But that is not to<br>
> discount the valid criticisms
that others have expressed and that I
agree<br>
> with.<br>
><br>
> Disclaimer: I'm a member of the
evil cabal.<br>
><br>
> --<br>
> Jeremy Malcolm<br>
> Senior Global Policy Analyst<br>
> Electronic Frontier Foundation<br>
> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://eff.org/"
target="_blank">https://eff.org</a><br>
> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jmalcolm@eff.org"
target="_blank">jmalcolm@eff.org</a><br>
><br>
> Tel: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:415.436.9333%20ext%20161"
target="_blank" value="+14154369333">415.436.9333
ext 161</a><br>
><br>
> :: Defending Your Rights in the
Digital World ::<br>
><br>
> On Aug 13, 2014, at 6:57 PM,
Jordan Carter <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jordan@internetnz.net.nz"
target="_blank">jordan@internetnz.net.nz</a>>
wrote:<br>
><br>
> Can someone explain why a noted
business centred forum is the place to<br>
> launch an Internet governance
initiative?<br>
><br>
> I genuinely don't understand
that.<br>
><br>
> I thought the whole lesson of
netmundial was that genuine multi
stakeholder<br>
> approaches work well, not that it
was a nice experiment to be ignored.<br>
><br>
> It would be helpful if those who
rule us, as it were, would rapidly
disclose<br>
> some authoritative information.<br>
><br>
> Jordan<br>
><br>
> On Thursday, 14 August 2014,
Stephen Farrell <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie"
target="_blank">stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie</a>><br>
> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Gotta say... seems like
elitist nonsense to me having looked<br>
>> at the invite list and other
docs. The elitist part should be<br>
>> obvious. The nonsense part is
due to almost none of the list<br>
>> of invitees being known for
knowing about the Internet. It<br>
>> seems much more an elite than
an Internet-savvy list of folks<br>
>> being asked to form a new
cabal. That said, cabals aren't all<br>
>> bad, and I've no reason to
think very badly of this particular<br>
>> subset of the elite and its I
guess just more meaningless policy<br>
>> stuff so I don't need to care
very much.<br>
>><br>
>> That said, it seems a pity
for this to be the next step after<br>
>> the Brazil gig which seemed
relatively open.<br>
>><br>
>> S.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> On 14/08/14 02:36, William
Drake wrote:<br>
>> > Hi<br>
>> ><br>
>> > I proposed several times
to the 1NET Co Com that 1NET explore
serving as<br>
>> > a more open
multistakeholder vehicle for
connecting people to the NETmundial<br>
>> > Initiative. Several
members expressed support for that,
but since how the<br>
>> > NMI will evolve remains
very unclear it’s hard to know ex ante
how this<br>
>> > could work. I made the
same suggestion to Fadi in London,
didn’t get much<br>
>> > reaction.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > As I understand the
basic idea, NMI will have a six month
launch managed<br>
>> > by WEF but the hope
would be that this leads to something
broader and more<br>
>> > inclusive in a second
phase. Not how I would have done it,
but that said I<br>
>> > wouldn’t assume before
the fact that the second phase will
not come. We<br>
>> > have to see for starters
how the conversation goes 28 August
and what is<br>
>> > possible…<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Bill<br>
>> ><br>
>> > On Aug 13, 2014, at
10:00 PM, Avri Doria <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:avri@ACM.ORG"
target="_blank">avri@ACM.ORG</a>>
wrote:<br>
>> ><br>
>> >> Hi,<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> Just wondering, is
this a proper list for those who have
been catching<br>
>> >> bits and pieces of
the ICANN/WEF 'NetMundial Initiaitve'
to be<br>
>> >> discussed.<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> I think it might be,
and have even suggested it to others,
but figured<br>
>> >> I<br>
>> >> better check first.<br>
>> >><br>
>> >><br>
>> >> avri<br>
>> >><br>
>> >>
_______________________________________________<br>
>> >> discuss mailing list<br>
>> >> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:discuss@1net.org"
target="_blank">discuss@1net.org</a><br>
>> >> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://1net-mail.1net.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss"
target="_blank">http://1net-mail.1net.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss</a><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> >
_______________________________________________<br>
>> > discuss mailing list<br>
>> > <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:discuss@1net.org"
target="_blank">discuss@1net.org</a><br>
>> > <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://1net-mail.1net.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss"
target="_blank">http://1net-mail.1net.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss</a><br>
>> ><br>
>><br>
>>
_______________________________________________<br>
>> discuss mailing list<br>
>> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:discuss@1net.org"
target="_blank">discuss@1net.org</a><br>
>> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://1net-mail.1net.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss"
target="_blank">http://1net-mail.1net.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss</a><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> --<br>
> --<br>
> Jordan Carter<br>
> Chief Executive, InternetNZ<br>
><br>
> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%2B64-21-442-649"
target="_blank" value="+6421442649">+64-21-442-649</a>
| <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jordan@internetnz.net.nz"
target="_blank">jordan@internetnz.net.nz</a><br>
><br>
> Sent on the run, apologies for
brevity<br>
><br>
>
_______________________________________________<br>
> discuss mailing list<br>
> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:discuss@1net.org"
target="_blank">discuss@1net.org</a><br>
> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://1net-mail.1net.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss"
target="_blank">http://1net-mail.1net.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss</a><br>
><br>
><br>
>
_______________________________________________<br>
> discuss mailing list<br>
> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:discuss@1net.org"
target="_blank">discuss@1net.org</a><br>
> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://1net-mail.1net.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss"
target="_blank">http://1net-mail.1net.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss</a><br>
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
`````````````````````````````````
anriette esterhuysen
executive director
association for progressive communications
po box 29755, melville, 2109, south africa
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