[discuss] /1net Steering/Coordination Commitee

Fri Dec 20 14:30:27 UTC 2013

+1

The issues are what is important, not the names we choose for ourselves or who volunteers to do heavier lifting by agreeing to do more work. I'm with George regarding issue-based organization and believe it offers a way forward from our silo-based structures and processes that can obstruct open dialog, cross fertilization, and in the end - real consensus.

The who (silo) is less important than the what (issue) except that the who's first responsibility is to understand and meaningfully work with others. Representing a single silo is less important than the ability to understand all and reach consensus.

> On Dec 19, 2013, at 8:35 PM, "George Sadowsky" <george.sadowsky at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> All,
> 
> I largely agree with Andrew's view of this issue.
> 
> We have a multitude of issues in the IG space that could stand increased understanding and improvement.  If we could focus on the issues and work toward that increased understanding of the issue, the alternatives, and the pros and cons of the alternatives, then we might be making progress toward improving IG.
> 
> I've argued before that stakeholder silos have negative effects.  On of them is that they push us to think of interest groups rather than problems and solutions across all of us.  
> 
> I like Andrew's dictum of "do stuff, structure later."  while we may beed some kind of structure going into implementation, let's make it as loose and as non-prescriptive as possible.  Maybe the structure should be around issues rather than occupants of silos?
> 
> Michael Gurstein and I had what I thought was a useful exchange a few weeks ago.  The hypothesis that I think we tended to agree upon, more or less (Michael, please correct me if you disagree), was the following (somewhat simplified): that the fight over representation is really a proxy war; the real fight -- the hidden fight -- is over different opinions on issues, and the representation fight allows the issue fight to be hidden.
> 
> To the extent that this is the case, the representation fight obstructs getting to the issues and is counterproductive to our work.  Let's get directly to the issues.  In doing so, let's realize that agreement on issues cuts across stakeholder silos, and let's rethink how best to structure these conversations.
> 
> George
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 
>> On Dec 19, 2013, at 10:35 PM, Andrew Sullivan wrote:
>> 
>> Dear colleagues,
>> 
>>> On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 09:09:25PM +0000, Shatan, Gregory S. wrote:
>>> 
>>> I enjoyed the semi-public back-and-forth regarding selection of
>>> Civil Society representatives, which seemed to involve folks from a
>>> number of different backgrounds, sectors, "home groups" and
>>> geographic areas,
>> 
>> Me too.
>> 
>>> That is certainly a good basis (so to speak) for such representation
>>> to be determined.
>> 
>> Why is it not an equally good basis for not bothering with
>> "representation", and instead with embracing rough consensus combined
>> with them-what-does-the-work-wins?  That is, why do we need some sort
>> of boss-of-activity to lead?  Why isn't "bottom up" good enough when
>> it's time to decide what to do?  Those who've already done get to keep
>> doing!
>> 
>> I am concerned that the default here seems to be "create structure
>> then do" rather than "do stuff; structure later."  The former is
>> consistent with a view in which action needs to be governed before we
>> have any actions.  But that's not (at least in the small) how the
>> Internet was started, and I'm pretty doubtful that we'd have any
>> Internet without the support the pioneers got.
>> 
>> Best regards,
>> 
>> A
>> 
>>> 
>>> Greg Shatan
>>> (my opinions are my own and not of those of any body or anybody else.)
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: discuss-bounces at 1net.org [mailto:discuss-bounces at 1net.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Sullivan
>>> Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2013 3:53 PM
>>> To: discuss at 1net.org
>>> Subject: Re: [discuss] /1net Steering/Coordination Commitee
>>> 
>>>> On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 09:22:51PM +0100, Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> I am actually *disturbed* by the naivety with which this is all being
>>>> set-up. This line-up is the *best* way to have the multi-stakeholder
>>>> model ridiculed & shot down -- as in, the "multi-stakeholder model" is
>>>> nothing but window dressing for US multi-nationals to keep their
>>>> control over the Internet.
>>> 
>>> Why?  It just turns out that we've named that "stakeholder" group incorrectly.  It's not the business stakeholder group.  It's the large US business interest group.  They're a stakeholder.  We just need a different set to represent other kinds of stake, such as small businesses or non-US businesses or whatever.
>>> 
>>> This is, in fact, the very reason I have been uncomfortable with the representative-of-group model that's being pursued, and part of why I have refused to volunteer as any sort of representative of "the Technical Community".  I have no idea what the boundary of that community is, I am pretty sure that I can't represent all of it, and I have no idea how I could legitimately claim to.
>>> 
>>> In my opinion, the constitution of the steering/co-ordinating/whatever we call it committee is just illegitmate.  There's no way for anyone to tell who represents any constituency, and the chance that the representation is somehow wrong approaches 1.
>>> 
>>> I'm aware that we need to bootstrap this effort.  My claim is that it would be more legitimate if we did that _ad hoc_ until such time as we have some things running.  That way, we don't drown the effort in early wrangling over committee structure, internal governance, legitimacy of participants to represent anyone, and so on.  Instead, by trying to build the org structure first, we have wandered into those topics without any way to declare disputes legitimately resolved.
>>> 
>>> John Curran already provided a rebuttal to my argument, and I'm not willing to wrangle over it.  But I think we have set things up precisely to yield these sorts of results.
>>> 
>>> Best regards,
>>> 
>>> Andrew
>>> (as ever, for myself only)
>> 
>> -- 
>> Andrew Sullivan
>> ajs at anvilwalrusden.com
>> 
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